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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 12/28/2009 : 11:43:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
If you tell a child that you're taking him to get his hair cut, but you really take him to a friends' house for a surprise birthday party, is it lying?
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Sure. We think it's funny to take advantage of someone else's trust in us, to manipulate their emotions, for our amusement. In this case of Santa, we do this for weeks on end, year after year, and not just about haircuts which could be real, but a universe where reindeer fly and people travel around the world in no time at all and consumer items are inflated in importance. 
SO, why do we think that's a good thing again?
Duane |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2009 : 12:23:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
SO, why do we think that's a good thing again? |
Well, because as it has already been said, allowing a child to puzzle the truth out for themselves is often a more enriching and impactful learning experience. That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with being straight up from the beginning with your children about Santa either. I certainly don't think the Santa fantasy is necessary for us to live in a society that can imagine justice. 
As for what parents might get out of the experience, I think it has to do with wanting to protect one's children from harsh realities. A child's world should be a safe and protected one. Many parents are loath to broach any topic which undermines this feeling. Santa is often the first domino to fall in that regard. It's a child's first loss of innocence. First you find out Santa isn't real, then you learn that kitty is never going to wake up from death and that some adults do bad things to children. The road to adulthood is pocked with many disturbing revelations.
Now to me that's entirely the benefit of the Santa ruse. It allows a child's loss of innocence to be (hopefully) a gradual one, rather than some abrupt trauma down the road. But for many parents it's hard to initiate that process, since loss of innocence is irreversible. You can't ever go back again. That's why they often delay and drag their feet past a point which is healthy, as Wise has done with his own daughter.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/28/2009 12:24:14 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2009 : 16:41:12 [Permalink]
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Gorgo......
| I told my children that Santa brought them presents. My parents told me that Santa brought me presents. Why isn't that a lie, and why is that productive? |
I think the crux of the matter lies in the real meaning of the concept of a lie. Wiki tells us: | A lie (also called prevarication, falsehood) is a type of deception in the form of an untruthful statement, especially with the intention to deceive others, often with the further intention to maintain a secret or reputation, protect someone's feelings or to avoid a punishment. |
So, to focus more tightly on "especially with the intention to deceive others"... Consider:
If you tell your children there is a Santa Claus, do you intend to deceive them? Dave's answer is apparently that there is no intent to deceive in a lie of omission. Don't intentionally bring up the issue; however, if the kids ask, don't lie to them - but don't volunteer the truth until they do ask!
OK, ethically pretty practical, and neatly avoids the question of whether or not there are quantitative degrees of lying (little lie, big lie); or qualitative degrees of lying (white lie, gray lie, big honkin' black lie).
It seems to me that there are many degrees of lying and also many types of lies. There is intentional deceit, and unintentional deceit. There are exaggerations and distortions of the truth. There are malevolent lies and beneficient lies, lies of commission and lies of omission, lies of intention and lies that are unintentional, big fat lies and little tiny fibs. In fact: wiki feels that there are all these:
1.1.1 Big lie
1.1.2 Bluffing
1.1.3 Barefaced lie
1.1.4 Contextual lie
1.1.5 Emergency lie
1.1.6 Exaggeration
1.1.7 Fabrication
1.1.8 Jocose lie
1.1.9 Lie-to-children
1.1.10 Lying by obsolete signage
1.1.11 Lying by omission
1.1.12 Lying in trade
1.1.13 Lying through your teeth
1.1.14 Misleading/Dissembling
1.1.15 Noble lie
1.1.16 Perjury
1.1.17 Puffery
1.1.18 White lie |
Indeed, a lie may be intended to be the truth ("yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus") although it may take a very long time for this to become known; if, in fact, it can be known at all in all cases. Because, the "Truth" is indeed an extremely difficult entity to define and even more difficult to discover or ascertain.
My personal view is that truth can only be approximated, is always open to change or refinement, and should really only be alluded to in statistical terms of probability. (Exception to this broad statement would be those reference systems that are axiomatic by definition, such as most of mathematics, deductive and inductive logic, and the like.) The corollary has to be that a Lie can only be as well defined as the Truth that it contravenes can be so defined. So:
| I told my children that Santa brought them presents. My parents told me that Santa brought me presents. Why isn't that a lie, and why is that productive? |
It IS a lie. It is not necessarily productive, but it certainly is not necessarily counter-productive. It depends upon the type of lie that "Santa brought you presents" is; and particularly how the kids will see and remenber the lie when they are a little older. My sense is that this type of Lying-to-Children is really of little lasting harm unless, as noted by H. Humbert and Kil here, the deception is extended too far into the beginning of the age of reason.
Dr. John Condry of Cornell University interviewed more than 500 children for a study of the issue and found that not a single child was angry at his or her parents for telling them Santa Claus was real.
According to Dr. Condry: "The most common response to finding out the truth was that they felt older and more mature. They now knew something that the younger kids didn't" |
Gorgo, you ask:| If we're lying to them, then why do we do it? |
I feel that is strictly because it is a common custom performed by and approved of by most of one's fellow man - precisely the same reason for atheists and non-christians to indulge in any participation of the traditions of Christmas. One does it, full knowing it is a lie and a sham. because one wishes to be, at least to a small degree, part of a larger celebratory atmosphere that offers some respite and break from the humdrum and ennui of the work week (sorry,Kil, I know!)! It is part of a primal need to belong - not conform, but belong - to the collective. It may not be rational, I have never decided for myself whether or not such apparently illogical needs were actually favoring survival. Most folks seem to have them!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2009 : 17:49:00 [Permalink]
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| Keep in mind, though, that in the overall scale of deception, propagating the Santa myth is no worse than saying things like "You look terrific," or "You haven't gained weight," or "What a great dress," says Feldman, noting that people generally use lies as a social crutch. |
Actually, it's a great deal different. In the first place we haven't established that saying things like, "you haven't lost weight" isn't incredibly stupid. In the second place, the difference is the need to make reality into something magical and supernatural. You'd have to compare statements like, "because you believe in Jesus, he made you lose 100 pounds overnight but you can't really tell by looking in the mirror or getting on the scales" with talk about Santa to make a good analogy.
| "Always tell the truth as you know it. That doesn't mean being explicit beyond what a child wants to know," says Kuchenbecker. To prove her point, she shares a story of a little girl who asks her mother what "sex" is. The flustered parent tries her best to explain the meaning of the word to her daughter, but at the end of the long lecture, the girl says she simply wanted to know what the difference was between males and females. |
In other words, telling people, because they're short and gullible, that they'd better be good for Santa's sake is a lie. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2009 : 18:25:43 [Permalink]
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Gorgo:
Actually, it's a great deal different. In the first place we haven't established that saying things like, "you haven't lost weight" isn't incredibly stupid. In the second place, the difference is the need to make reality into something magical and supernatural. You'd have to compare statements like, "because you believe in Jesus, he made you lose 100 pounds overnight but you can't really tell by looking in the mirror or getting on the scales" with talk about Santa to make a good analogy. |
I thought that what you were arguing for is that a lie is a lie. So it's worse to lie about a fat jolly elf to a young child than it is to tell someone with an awful haircut that they look great? Is it that you think the supernatural stuff sticks better? If that were the case, why do kids generally grow out of the belief? On their own!
Gorgo:
In other words, telling people, because they're short and gullible, that they'd better be good for Santa's sake is a lie. |
I never did that. Did you? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2009 : 18:33:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Gorgo:
In other words, telling people, because they're short and gullible, that they'd better be good for Santa's sake is a lie. |
I never did that. Did you?
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That wasn't an accusation. None of this is an accusation. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2009 : 21:25:09 [Permalink]
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Gorgo.....
| Actually, it's a great deal different. In the first place we haven't established that saying things like, "you haven't lost weight" isn't incredibly stupid. |
Are you married, Gorgo?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2009 : 23:38:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I told my children that Santa brought them presents. My parents told me that Santa brought me presents. Why isn't that a lie, and why is that productive? I'm not saying it should be outlawed here, I'm just continuing the thought to its conclusion. Is it a lie, or isn't it? Why is it not a lie because my brain isn't formed? I understood very early on that TV was different than real life. It wasn't that I believed I was Spiderman, it was that it was fun playing Spiderman.
If we're lying to them, then why do we do it? Do we do it because we're entertained by their gullibility? What other reason could there be? Why isn't "I gave you a present" enough for us? You're saying it's not harmful because they don't understand that they're being lied to, but why isn't trust enough of a goal to keep us from lying to our children?
Wise seems to be saying that it's important for a child's imagination to be lied to. Why? It's not the child's imagination that Santa comes from, that came from people long dead. Seems more like a lack of imagination on our parts.
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It isn't a lie. Small children lack the ability to reason through it. Anything you tell them they accept at face value.
They will make the fantasy/reality distinction on their own eventually as part of their normal developement. As has been said previously, it is ok to play the game with them until they question it. At that point you should explain it to them.
As for lying being bad all the time....
Ever tell your kid they were of average intelligence or mediocre appearance? Ever tell them they were too fat or too skinny? Ever tell them they were not good enough to do some activity they wanted to do(sports, singing, etc)?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 00:26:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Are you married, Gorgo? |
I mean, "you haven't gained weight." Sorry, if it's noticeable, why would you say that? You may not say, "you look like a fat slob...."
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 12/29/2009 01:56:22 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 00:39:22 [Permalink]
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It isn't a lie. Small children lack the ability to reason through it. Anything you tell them they accept at face value.
They will make the fantasy/reality distinction on their own eventually as part of their normal developement. As has been said previously, it is ok to play the game with them until they question it. At that point you should explain it to them.
As for lying being bad all the time....
Ever tell your kid they were of average intelligence or mediocre appearance? Ever tell them they were too fat or too skinny? Ever tell them they were not good enough to do some activity they wanted to do(sports, singing, etc)?
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It's fine to say it's okay, it's just for fun, but is it really not a lie because they believe it? If I lie to you and you believe it is it not still a lie? What does their capacity to understand have to do with what you do? It's your action, not theirs.
Again, I'm not saying lying is bad all the time. I'm asking if lying about the very nature of the universe is a good idea. Why is it a good idea? It's not about their imagination, because they didn't create it. I told my kids that Santa brought them presents. That is a lie. Santa traveling the world in less than seconds is a lie about the nature of the universe. Why is that a good idea? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 00:42:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Gorgo
SO, why do we think that's a good thing again? |
Well, because as it has already been said, allowing a child to puzzle the truth out for themselves is often a more enriching and impactful learning experience. That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with being straight up from the beginning with your children about Santa either. I certainly don't think the Santa fantasy is necessary for us to live in a society that can imagine justice.
As for what parents might get out of the experience, I think it has to do with wanting to protect one's children from harsh realities. A child's world should be a safe and protected one. Many parents are loath to broach any topic which undermines this feeling. Santa is often the first domino to fall in that regard. It's a child's first loss of innocence. First you find out Santa isn't real, then you learn that kitty is never going to wake up from death and that some adults do bad things to children. The road to adulthood is pocked with many disturbing revelations.
Now to me that's entirely the benefit of the Santa ruse. It allows a child's loss of innocence to be (hopefully) a gradual one, rather than some abrupt trauma down the road. But for many parents it's hard to initiate that process, since loss of innocence is irreversible. You can't ever go back again. That's why they often delay and drag their feet past a point which is healthy, as Wise has done with his own daughter.
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That's cool. Though I still wonder why allowing them to puzzle out a mystery we actively participated in creating is enriching. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 00:47:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Gorgo:
Actually, it's a great deal different. In the first place we haven't established that saying things like, "you haven't lost weight" isn't incredibly stupid. In the second place, the difference is the need to make reality into something magical and supernatural. You'd have to compare statements like, "because you believe in Jesus, he made you lose 100 pounds overnight but you can't really tell by looking in the mirror or getting on the scales" with talk about Santa to make a good analogy. |
I thought that what you were arguing for is that a lie is a lie. So it's worse to lie about a fat jolly elf to a young child than it is to tell someone with an awful haircut that they look great? Is it that you think the supernatural stuff sticks better? If that were the case, why do kids generally grow out of the belief? On their own!
Gorgo:
In other words, telling people, because they're short and gullible, that they'd better be good for Santa's sake is a lie. |
I never did that. Did you?
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Isn't it a lie to tell them that Santa brought their presents? Why do we need to lie about that? Maybe you didn't do that, but people do. I'm not even asking if it's wrong. I'm asking if it's a good idea to show them that we can't have fun unless we create a magical universe for them. Sure, we read them stories, but we don't tell them that the story is true (unless it is).
Do you think it's a good idea to tell children that Jesus rose from the dead? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 02:39:47 [Permalink]
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On the subject of lying about looks, there was this girl in my school who was not a model that no one liked. They didn't really dislike her because she was not pretty, they didn't like her. She wasn't a bad kid, she was just kind of a brat. Word had it that her father told her she was beautiful. I asked Mom why someone would do that, and she said something like, "what would you think he should tell her, that she's ugly?"
I don't have a good answer for that. I tried to tell my kids useful things. If they drew something, I'd say something like, "you're a drawer." It's kind of a joke, but to me it's a useful observation. They liked to draw so I pointed that out. Didn't matter if they didn't win awards for it, they liked to draw, so they drew. If they dressed up, I observed that. I didn't need to tell them they were beautiful.
Many adults told me that I was handsome. Didn't mean anything to me until a girl did. Even that didn't mean much without actions.
I think rather than spend time talking about her looks, it would have been better to tell her how to appreciate other people. Maybe he did in his own way by telling her she was beautiful. I'll never know. I tried not to lie, as I imagine most of you try whenever possible. I suppose sometimes I did. I didn't see much point in discussing things like my kids looks or their IQ. When I helped them with their homework I told them when I thought they were trying, and when I thought they had given up. I didn't tell them they were smart or dumb. Can't conceive of a reason to apply those labels to my own kid.
Not saying I'm not a crappy father, either. Just discussing in order to learn, not preaching here.
Maybe with the Santa question it would be better to ask if it's the best idea rather than if it's a good idea? Are there better ways to do whatever it is we think we're doing? I think I did the Santa thing because that's what parents did those many years ago. Having time to think about it, I wonder what I'd do now. Maybe the same thing. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 02:55:10 [Permalink]
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| I think the other thing about telling the girl that she was beautiful is that I'm guessing that the father was teaching the girl to place undue importance on such things. Why was it so important to focus on that one aspect of her? What else about her was he not encouraging? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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On Santa and other harmless fibs
