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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 11:03:35 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
| It isn't a lie. Small children lack the ability to reason through it. Anything you tell them they accept at face value. |
Dude, surely you cannot mean what you wrote above? A lie is only a lie when it it perceived as one? A lie received as the truth, becomes the truth? Anything taken at face value is truth? Christ, even Joe Goebbels didn't think he was creating truth with his monstrous lies!
Come on, Dude, use some of your remarkable circumlocuted logic to find a way out of this faux pas! I won't be able to sleep well tonight knowing that Dude stated that a lie is not a lie if it is believed to be the truth!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 11:27:10 [Permalink]
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Gorgo.....
| Maybe with the Santa question it would be better to ask if it's the best idea rather than if it's a good idea? Are there better ways to do whatever it is we think we're doing? I think I did the Santa thing because that's what parents did those many years ago. Having time to think about it, I wonder what I'd do now. Maybe the same thing. |
How about,
"Son (or daughter), there are lot's of Santa Clauses. Lots of good Mommys and Daddys, and other people too, like to give presents to kids and to each other at Christmas. Christmas is one time when we like to have happy times and be good to each other and sometimes give presents. Lots of grown-ups call that being Santa Claus, and you can too!"
I think there is some merit in your argument that it is not a real good idea to lie or support a falsehood to a young child who is not yet prepared to reason through the situation. It really isn't all that much different from lying to them about God, or Allah, or the FSM at an age when they will trustingly believe anything an adult may tell them - especially a trusted adult like Mom or Dad. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 12/29/2009 : 11:53:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
It isn't a lie. Small children lack the ability to reason through it. Anything you tell them they accept at face value.
They will make the fantasy/reality distinction on their own eventually as part of their normal developement. As has been said previously, it is ok to play the game with them until they question it. At that point you should explain it to them.
As for lying being bad all the time....
Ever tell your kid they were of average intelligence or mediocre appearance? Ever tell them they were too fat or too skinny? Ever tell them they were not good enough to do some activity they wanted to do(sports, singing, etc)?
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It's fine to say it's okay, it's just for fun, but is it really not a lie because they believe it? If I lie to you and you believe it is it not still a lie? What does their capacity to understand have to do with what you do? It's your action, not theirs.
Again, I'm not saying lying is bad all the time. I'm asking if lying about the very nature of the universe is a good idea. Why is it a good idea? It's not about their imagination, because they didn't create it. I told my kids that Santa brought them presents. That is a lie. Santa traveling the world in less than seconds is a lie about the nature of the universe. Why is that a good idea?
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First, I'm not a child nor do I lack the ability to participate in concrete and abstract reasoning excercises. If you lie to me and I believe it, it is a lie. If you tell a 2 year old that Santa brough her a present, it is not a lie. I don't think it counts as a lie until they are capable of determining truth from fiction.
If a person is not capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality, are you really telling them a lie when you participate in a fantasy? I don't think so.
When children get old enough to question the fantasy, then you probably have some obligation to come clean witht them. But before they develope the reasoning skills required....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 12:57:12 [Permalink]
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Every justification I've seen for telling children there is a Santa Clause, I've also seen used to justify "alternative medicine."
What's the harm, people say? Well, the harm comes in introducing appeals to objective, extra-human morality, reinforced by magical thinking - a realm of should and oughts and goods and evils that serve to create an expectation of supernatural interventions based on being appropriately childlike before supernatural influences. One person I know refers to christmas as a series of threats and rewards and that about sums it up, really. But it's the kinds of threats and rewards - and the kinds of enforcement - that represent the harm. A harm that expresses itself in creationism, efficacy of prayer, and, as previously mentioned, alternative medicine.
It is not a fib; it is a lie - and it is a dangerous one. |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 13:26:17 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
| If a person is not capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality, are you really telling them a lie when you participate in a fantasy? I don't think so. |
Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity and several others regularly lie blatantly to their audiences. A high percentage of the audience for these charlatans is naíve, ignorant, ill-educated, and stupid enough to believe explicitly the lies they are being told. These folks are called the wingnut fringe of the Republican (now, Conservative) Party. It is obvious from many polls that they largely live in a fantasy world, and do not distinguish reality from fantasy.
Because Limbaugh and Beck's audience believes what they are told, does that mean that Limbaugh and Beck are not lying? |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 13:47:22 [Permalink]
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dglas:
Every justification I've seen for telling children there is a Santa Clause, I've also seen used to justify "alternative medicine." |
Have you actually read through this whole thread? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 18:08:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by Gorgo
It isn't a lie. Small children lack the ability to reason through it. Anything you tell them they accept at face value.
They will make the fantasy/reality distinction on their own eventually as part of their normal developement. As has been said previously, it is ok to play the game with them until they question it. At that point you should explain it to them.
As for lying being bad all the time....
Ever tell your kid they were of average intelligence or mediocre appearance? Ever tell them they were too fat or too skinny? Ever tell them they were not good enough to do some activity they wanted to do(sports, singing, etc)?
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It's fine to say it's okay, it's just for fun, but is it really not a lie because they believe it? If I lie to you and you believe it is it not still a lie? What does their capacity to understand have to do with what you do? It's your action, not theirs.
Again, I'm not saying lying is bad all the time. I'm asking if lying about the very nature of the universe is a good idea. Why is it a good idea? It's not about their imagination, because they didn't create it. I told my kids that Santa brought them presents. That is a lie. Santa traveling the world in less than seconds is a lie about the nature of the universe. Why is that a good idea?
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First, I'm not a child nor do I lack the ability to participate in concrete and abstract reasoning excercises. If you lie to me and I believe it, it is a lie. If you tell a 2 year old that Santa brough her a present, it is not a lie. I don't think it counts as a lie until they are capable of determining truth from fiction.
If a person is not capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality, are you really telling them a lie when you participate in a fantasy? I don't think so.
When children get old enough to question the fantasy, then you probably have some obligation to come clean witht them. But before they develope the reasoning skills required....
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I have to admit, this is a completely new concept for me. I mean, I know that kids have underdeveloped brains, and they lack certain abilities, but the people you are describing are so psychotic that I don't understand why you'd attempt communication with them. To say that people like that would be gullible, would be outrageous, as you have to have some connection to reality to believe. I've never met anyone who would understand the concept of Santa, who had no grasp of reality at all.
I'm not making fun, that seems like what you're saying. I guess I'll have to study more about this somehow.
Interesting discussion, though. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 18:41:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dude.....
| If a person is not capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality, are you really telling them a lie when you participate in a fantasy? I don't think so. |
Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity and several others regularly lie blatantly to their audiences. A high percentage of the audience for these charlatans is naíve, ignorant, ill-educated, and stupid enough to believe explicitly the lies they are being told. These folks are called the wingnut fringe of the Republican (now, Conservative) Party. It is obvious from many polls that they largely live in a fantasy world, and do not distinguish reality from fantasy.
Because Limbaugh and Beck's audience believes what they are told, does that mean that Limbaugh and Beck are not lying?
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If their followers were actual 2 year olds (or some developementally impared adult) then you may have a point.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 18:46:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by Gorgo
It isn't a lie. Small children lack the ability to reason through it. Anything you tell them they accept at face value.
They will make the fantasy/reality distinction on their own eventually as part of their normal developement. As has been said previously, it is ok to play the game with them until they question it. At that point you should explain it to them.
As for lying being bad all the time....
Ever tell your kid they were of average intelligence or mediocre appearance? Ever tell them they were too fat or too skinny? Ever tell them they were not good enough to do some activity they wanted to do(sports, singing, etc)?
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It's fine to say it's okay, it's just for fun, but is it really not a lie because they believe it? If I lie to you and you believe it is it not still a lie? What does their capacity to understand have to do with what you do? It's your action, not theirs.
Again, I'm not saying lying is bad all the time. I'm asking if lying about the very nature of the universe is a good idea. Why is it a good idea? It's not about their imagination, because they didn't create it. I told my kids that Santa brought them presents. That is a lie. Santa traveling the world in less than seconds is a lie about the nature of the universe. Why is that a good idea?
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First, I'm not a child nor do I lack the ability to participate in concrete and abstract reasoning excercises. If you lie to me and I believe it, it is a lie. If you tell a 2 year old that Santa brough her a present, it is not a lie. I don't think it counts as a lie until they are capable of determining truth from fiction.
If a person is not capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality, are you really telling them a lie when you participate in a fantasy? I don't think so.
When children get old enough to question the fantasy, then you probably have some obligation to come clean witht them. But before they develope the reasoning skills required....
|
I have to admit, this is a completely new concept for me. I mean, I know that kids have underdeveloped brains, and they lack certain abilities, but the people you are describing are so psychotic that I don't understand why you'd attempt communication with them. To say that people like that would be gullible, would be outrageous, as you have to have some connection to reality to believe. I've never met anyone who would understand the concept of Santa, who had no grasp of reality at all.
I'm not making fun, that seems like what you're saying. I guess I'll have to study more about this somehow.
Interesting discussion, though.
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I'll also add that even if you do draw some Kantian line about lying, I disagree that all lies are bad things. Even if you consider it a lie to tell a small child that santa is giving them presents, as long as you don't continue telling them Santa is real when they question, you are not engaging in any deciet.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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On Santa and other harmless fibs
