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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 04/28/2010 :  00:10:27  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message  Reply with Quote





"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones

Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  08:04:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, here is the AZ immigration law.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

What exactly is racist/unconstitutional/wrong in this law?


Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  08:13:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

Ok, here is the AZ immigration law.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

What exactly is racist/unconstitutional/wrong in this law?




Agreed Robb. I see nothing wrong with AZ enforcing this. Obviously there is a problem there. What they are doing is not extreme at all. If the Feds aren't going to do anything then AZ has to.
It boggles my mind that the Feds will be suing AZ about it. Put that money, time, and effort into helping them rather than opposing them.

Things like this are the reason I hate politics.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  09:16:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know if it's true but I heard on NPR that the AZ law other than it applying to AZ law enforcement, it mirrors federal law on the subject. SS

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  10:40:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

I don't know if it's true but I heard on NPR that the AZ law other than it applying to AZ law enforcement, it mirrors federal law on the subject. SS
Correct. It basically says that Arizona law enforcement and government agencies will abide by Federal law. When an illigal person is caught they turn them over to the federal government which can do what they want with them. Racial profiling is prohibited in this law.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  10:45:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-BG9ksLLVo&feature=player_embedded

The answer is that democrates are not for illegal immigration law enforcement. They should at least be honest about that.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  11:18:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote


And it was all perfectly legal. There are too many opportunities for abuses and let us not forget; AZ has this scumbag:



As far as I know, every state has laws already on the books that deal with illegal immigrants. This abomination is no more than conservative politics: "Hey, lookit how tough us is!"






"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  11:43:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The problem, Robb, is that every person here in this country who isn't a native american is an immigrant.

Also, any law which requires you to carry proof of your citizenship (federal or state) is a law that falls far outside the bounds of the US constitution and the principles it was written to support. To turn a conservative talking point on other issues around on you, show me the clause in the constitution that allows any police force to demand proof of citizenship.

Then we have to consider the expense. Your crowd is always howling about irresponsible spending. Well, who is going to pay for processing out all these illegals once they are rounded up? Why should my tax dollars be spent to deal with an imaginary immigration "problem" in states thousands of miles away from me?

Then there is the moral aspect of this. Why would you want to uproot millions of productive workers and ship them out of the country? What kind of impact would that have on their lives and the lives of their children, many of whom are US citizens? Where is your christian charity Robb?

The reality is that the vast majority of illegal immigrants work AND PAY TAXES, but are not able to reap the full benefit of the taxes they pay due to their status.

http://www.urban.org/publications/305184.html" target="_blank"> http://www.urban.org/publications/305184.html

The public sector costs and benefits of immigrants vary by level of government. To the federal government immigrants represent a net gain.


In 2006 8 of the 12 million illegal immigrants in the US were using officially issued IRS numbers to file federal tax returns, meaning that they pay federal income tax and social security/mecidare tax, but are not able to recieve the benefits of those programs.
Then you have to consider all the other local taxes paid. Sales tax, auto registration, property tax, and so on. It adds up bigtime.

Do you want to just strip out the 20 million or so illegals and watch how badly it screws over local economies? These people live here and spend the money they earn here, in businesses owned by you white folks!

But then you have to take a hard look at why people want to come here in the first place. A lot of it is because they can get jobs doing shit you can't pay a white person to do. Seasonal farm work for example. And it's because employers here actively seek out people they can pay the least amount. That's right, illegal immigration in the US is a direct consequence of free market capitalism.

So if you view illegal immigration as a problem that needs to be urgently addressed, you don't go after the immigrants themselves. You need to go after the people here who hire them. You have to start shutting down US businesses who hire illegals, make it a federal crime to hire them, and put US citizens who hire them in jail.

Remove the reason why people immigrate illegally and you eliminate illegal immigration. So direct your hate of brown people in the right direction Robb, not at the brown people, but at the white people who want them here!


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Edited by - Dude on 07/08/2010 11:45:18
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  11:55:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Originally posted by Robb

Ok, here is the AZ immigration law.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

What exactly is racist/unconstitutional/wrong in this law?




Agreed Robb. I see nothing wrong with AZ enforcing this. Obviously there is a problem there. What they are doing is not extreme at all. If the Feds aren't going to do anything then AZ has to.
It boggles my mind that the Feds will be suing AZ about it. Put that money, time, and effort into helping them rather than opposing them.

Things like this are the reason I hate politics.


AZ is trying to usurp federal powers. Their law is clearly unconstitutional (not because of the content, but because it transgresses on constitutionally granted federal powerd) so the fed has an obligation to smack them down.

Maybe if AZ weren't governed by a bunch of racist assholes they would instead pass a law that they could actually enforce without stepping on federal powers. Instead they pass a law that requires cops to round up anyone that looks suspiciously illegal....

They need to get a fucking grip.

Also, this law has the potential to be abused. Severely abused. Do you have your birth certificate in yout wallet? Hmmm, I don't either.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  12:47:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Originally posted by Robb

Ok, here is the AZ immigration law.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

What exactly is racist/unconstitutional/wrong in this law?




Agreed Robb. I see nothing wrong with AZ enforcing this. Obviously there is a problem there. What they are doing is not extreme at all. If the Feds aren't going to do anything then AZ has to.
It boggles my mind that the Feds will be suing AZ about it. Put that money, time, and effort into helping them rather than opposing them.

Things like this are the reason I hate politics.


AZ is trying to usurp federal powers. Their law is clearly unconstitutional (not because of the content, but because it transgresses on constitutionally granted federal powerd) so the fed has an obligation to smack them down.

Maybe if AZ weren't governed by a bunch of racist assholes they would instead pass a law that they could actually enforce without stepping on federal powers. Instead they pass a law that requires cops to round up anyone that looks suspiciously illegal....

They need to get a fucking grip.

Also, this law has the potential to be abused. Severely abused. Do you have your birth certificate in yout wallet? Hmmm, I don't either.



AZ is trying to usurp federal powers. Their law is clearly unconstitutional (not because of the content, but because it transgresses on constitutionally granted federal powerd) so the fed has an obligation to smack them down.

They have been forced to. They have been begging for a long time for help but have received none. Push is coming to shove. I for one am convinced they are having a problem that needs to be dealt with...with or without federal help. I have no problem with this kind of justice.
Maybe if AZ weren't governed by a bunch of racist assholes they would instead pass a law that they could actually enforce without stepping on federal powers. Instead they pass a law that requires cops to round up anyone that looks suspiciously illegal....

They need to get a fucking grip.

Generalize much?
I think you are misunderstanding what they want to do. They want to be able to when they lets say pull someone over for a traffic violation to be able to check their citizenship. Whats so wrong with that? On ALL job applications it asks whether you are a US citizen or are legally able to work in the US. Whats the problem? If the cops have an illegal immigrant in their hands why should they not know? I do not get your train of thought.
Also, this law has the potential to be abused. Severely abused. Do you have your birth certificate in yout wallet? Hmmm, I don't either.

This statement is awefully close to a slippery slope argument. I call bullshit on it. If it happens to be abused then each individual case should be investigated...not keep the whole thing from happening because it "might" be abused.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend

USA
346 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  13:22:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send leoofno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How do you tell if someone is illegal? The only real ID I have in my wallet is my drivers license. Would I be suspect if I didn't have it on me?

"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  13:27:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

The problem, Robb, is that every person here in this country who isn't a native american is an immigrant.
No so. I was born here and am a citizen. I was not am immigrant. The issue is not whether people are immegrants but if they are here legally.

Also, any law which requires you to carry proof of your citizenship (federal or state) is a law that falls far outside the bounds of the US constitution and the principles it was written to support. To turn a conservative talking point on other issues around on you, show me the clause in the constitution that allows any police force to demand proof of citizenship.
Where in this law does it say you need to carry proof of citizenship? It says it is up to the state to determine the status of citizenship.

Then we have to consider the expense. Your crowd is always howling about irresponsible spending. Well, who is going to pay for processing out all these illegals once they are rounded up? Why should my tax dollars be spent to deal with an imaginary immigration "problem" in states thousands of miles away from me?
Then the federal laws need to be changed. You are being dishonest to say illegal immigration is not a problem.

Then there is the moral aspect of this. Why would you want to uproot millions of productive workers and ship them out of the country? What kind of impact would that have on their lives and the lives of their children, many of whom are US citizens? Where is your christian charity Robb?
Millions? They cannot round up illegals and ship them out with this law. Why is it moral for people to break our laws and expect to get the same treatment as law abiding people? I am all for helping immigrants become legal workers or citizens here. We should change our laws to streamline this process for people that want to follow our laws.

Illegals come to our church all the time and we help them. NO church should be turning in illegals in need. But thats a different issue than law enforcements role.

The reality is that the vast majority of illegal immigrants work AND PAY TAXES, but are not able to reap the full benefit of the taxes they pay due to their status.

http://www.urban.org/publications/305184.html" target="_blank"> http://www.urban.org/publications/305184.html
Ok, has nothing to do with the AZ law.

Do you want to just strip out the 20 million or so illegals and watch how badly it screws over local economies? These people live here and spend the money they earn here, in businesses owned by you white folks!
I want to make these people legal citizens through legal means. I don't care they are here, I care they are breaking our laws. I own no buisness.

But then you have to take a hard look at why people want to come here in the first place. A lot of it is because they can get jobs doing shit you can't pay a white person to do. Seasonal farm work for example. And it's because employers here actively seek out people they can pay the least amount. That's right, illegal immigration in the US is a direct consequence of free market capitalism.
If you agree that the US should be the only country in the world to not regulate immigration then we need to change the laws and not ignore them.

So if you view illegal immigration as a problem that needs to be urgently addressed, you don't go after the immigrants themselves. You need to go after the people here who hire them. You have to start shutting down US businesses who hire illegals, make it a federal crime to hire them, and put US citizens who hire them in jail.
It is a crime to hire illegals. Nobody wants to enforce the law. (Republicans or Democrates)

Remove the reason why people immigrate illegally and you eliminate illegal immigration. So direct your hate of brown people in the right direction Robb, not at the brown people, but at the white people who want them here!
Why do you call me a racist? Your the problem. You will not let any discussion on this issue without calling people you disagree with racist to try to intimidate them into silence.

Then are you for removing all speed limit laws so nobody will get a speeding ticket? Removing the reason why they get a ticket? People breaking our laws have no blame at all?



Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  13:28:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

The answer is that democrates are not for illegal immigration law enforcement. They should at least be honest about that.

No way is this as a party specific issue. With the Democrats not and the Republicans for, illegal law enforcement. [b]Every]/b] business owner, regardless of party affiliation who profits from illegal workers, does not want to see a change in the official federal policy of ignoring illegal immigration and ignoring the laws addressing the issue. A policy that is enforced when and where they choose. Like when one business is raided and their competitors are not. I lived and owned a home in California, I have seen how enforcement is very selective, it most definitely is. SS

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
Edited by - sailingsoul on 07/08/2010 13:57:06
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  13:32:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

AZ is trying to usurp federal powers. Their law is clearly unconstitutional (not because of the content, but because it transgresses on constitutionally granted federal powerd) so the fed has an obligation to smack them down.
Not true. They are only applying existing federal law in Arizona. When they find illegals they turn them over to the federal government where they can do what they want with them.

Maybe if AZ weren't governed by a bunch of racist assholes they would instead pass a law that they could actually enforce without stepping on federal powers. Instead they pass a law that requires cops to round up anyone that looks suspiciously illegal....
This is a lie! Read the document. The law says this is illegal to do.

They need to get a fucking grip.

Also, this law has the potential to be abused. Severely abused. Do you have your birth certificate in yout wallet? Hmmm, I don't either.
All laws have the potential to be abused. You really need to read the law and stop listening to Rachel Maddow.



Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  13:47:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by leoofno

How do you tell if someone is illegal? The only real ID I have in my wallet is my drivers license. Would I be suspect if I didn't have it on me?

If you are driving a vehicle then you are required to have your license on you. If you didn't have it on you then yes it could cause you some problems.There would be no way to identify you without taking you down to the cop shop whether you are a legal resident or not.

An anecdote to share:
By brother-in-law is a recent immigrant from a contoversial South American country. He had to go through A LOT to become a citizen. He even had to move to a European country that he had never been to before (he was considered a citizen of that country because his father is from there) for over a year.
He is very careful to always have his documentation on him. Even if we are just going out to get something to eat he will go back home if he forgot it.

Whats the problem with expecting immigrants carrying their documentation? If I forget my drivers license and get pulled over I would expect a hassle because of it.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend

USA
346 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2010 :  14:33:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send leoofno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Originally posted by leoofno

How do you tell if someone is illegal? The only real ID I have in my wallet is my drivers license. Would I be suspect if I didn't have it on me?

If you are driving a vehicle then you are required to have your license on you. If you didn't have it on you then yes it could cause you some problems.There would be no way to identify you without taking you down to the cop shop whether you are a legal resident or not.

An anecdote to share:
By brother-in-law is a recent immigrant from a contoversial South American country. He had to go through A LOT to become a citizen. He even had to move to a European country that he had never been to before (he was considered a citizen of that country because his father is from there) for over a year.
He is very careful to always have his documentation on him. Even if we are just going out to get something to eat he will go back home if he forgot it.

Whats the problem with expecting immigrants carrying their documentation? If I forget my drivers license and get pulled over I would expect a hassle because of it.

I never said I was driving.

As a passenger I am not required to have a drivers license. Are you saying I should because the police can detain me if they think I might be illegal and I don't have one? Requiring that I always carry evidence of citizenship seems very un-American to me.

Again, what criteria would law enforvement use to determine that I might be illegal? I suspect that it would be based on my looking hispanic and not having some evidence of citizenship on me.

Federal or state, such a law is wrong, IMHO. The "State" should not have the right to detain citizens simply because of the way they look and because they do not have the right papers. Frankly, I'm surprised that anyone thinks its OK.

"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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