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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
 Posted - 07/08/2010 : 14:43:25 [Permalink]
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I never said I was driving.
As a passenger I am not required to have a drivers license. Are you saying I should because the police can detain me if they think I might be illegal and I don't have one? Requiring that I always carry evidence of citizenship seems very un-American to me.
Again, what criteria would law enforvement use to determine that I might be illegal? I suspect that it would be based on my looking hispanic and not having some evidence of citizenship on me.
Federal or state, such a law is wrong, IMHO. The "State" should not have the right to detain citizens simply because of the way they look and because they do not have the right papers. Frankly, I'm surprised that anyone thinks its OK. |
Oh fer da cryin' out loud.... yet another person who thinks that Arizona is just going to send the police out in full force to question every hispanic looking person they come into contact with. That is not the intention.
I'm finding it impossible to argue with the " DOOM TO ALL HISPANICS IN ARIZONA" mentality.
BTW, I don't know about everybody else but I ALWAYS have my billfold on me....my drivers license, my SS card, my library card are all in there. I fail to see why it is such a big deal to have your ID on you. I thought it was normal to have your ID on you...apparently not |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 14:45:01 [Permalink]
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ebone4rock said:
Generalize much?
I think you are misunderstanding what they want to do. They want to be able to when they lets say pull someone over for a traffic violation to be able to check their citizenship. Whats so wrong with that? On ALL job applications it asks whether you are a US citizen or are legally able to work in the US. Whats the problem? If the cops have an illegal immigrant in their hands why should they not know? I do not get your train of thought.
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Because of several reasons. Mainly, illegal immigration is a federal issue. It's jurisdictional. The enforcement of it must come from federal agencies, not state and local police. The current federal laws are not enforced because the huge majority of people who own businesses do not want it enforced, and these are the people that contribute to political campaigns, help organize on the ground, have the ear of local and federal level politicians, and all that. Republicans had 8 years of Bush (6 of which they also owned congress) to enact as much border and immigration reform as they wanted. How much of that got done? Hmmmm, oh, yeah, none.
I ask you again, do you have the ability to prove you are a US citizen on hand? Can you do it right now if someone demanded it of you?
Robb said:
Not true. They are only applying existing federal law in Arizona. When they find illegals they turn them over to the federal government where they can do what they want with them.
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Yes true, the AZ law requires AZ police to act as federal law enforcement. Even the AZ police say this law is out of bounds.
Why do you call me a racist? Your the problem. You will not let any discussion on this issue without calling people you disagree with racist to try to intimidate them into silence.
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Because if you support this law, you are a racist. It is an unjust law as is the federal law it attempts to mimmic. There are literally hundreds of other, better, ways to deal with this "problem". Create a fasst-track program that guarantees them they won't be deported or arrested and get them to be full citizens. Even W's guest worker program was a better solution. If you really think we should allow illegals to become citizens then you should be thinking about this differently. With laws like this you will only force them to hide their identity more fully. These are people we are talking about. People that live in your communities, have children, lives, jobs, ... the whole nine yards. And here you are advocating for deporting them. If your church won't turn them in, why the hell would you want to see them arrested and deported Robb? Racism. Have to call a duck a duck man. So don't act all outraged and fake offended until you correct your internal cognitive dissonance on this issue, figure out which side of it you really stand on.
| Illegals come to our church all the time and we help them. NO church should be turning in illegals in need. But thats a different issue than law enforcements role. |
Give up your false "rule of law" stance, because you clearly realize the law is unjust if you are willing to help your church shelter the identity of illegals from law enforcement. It isn't a very good mask for your racist attitude anyway.
| Where in this law does it say you need to carry proof of citizenship? It says it is up to the state to determine the status of citizenship. |
The way citizenship is verified is by you showing your birth certificate. Or is there some other way? Because all your "birther" friends seem to think that Obama, one of the most closely scrutinized individuals in the history of our planet, could satisfy their need for proving his citizenship if he'd only show them his birth certificate! Or do you think that AZ should set up a state agency to verify citizenship? How many tax dollars would that cost?
Then are you for removing all speed limit laws so nobody will get a speeding ticket? Removing the reason why they get a ticket? People breaking our laws have no blame at all?
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Spped limits are not unjust discriminatory laws that single out a specific ethnic group Robb. Nor is there a third party out there enticing people to speed for money.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 14:59:10 [Permalink]
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I ask you again, do you have the ability to prove you are a US citizen on hand? Can you do it right now if someone demanded it of you?
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Yes I do. See post #16.
That combined with my very noticable northern WI/Yooper accent there would be no mistaking my Americaness.
Oh shit....just thought of something....The ignorant may think I'm Canadian! |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 15:04:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I ask you again, do you have the ability to prove you are a US citizen on hand? Can you do it right now if someone demanded it of you?
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Yes I do. See post #16.
That combined with my very noticable northern WI/Yooper accent there would be no mistaking my Americaness.
Oh shit....just thought of something....The ignorant may think I'm Canadian!
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So you carry an official sealed and notarized copy of your birth certificate in your wallet? That's interesting.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 15:43:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Because if you support this law, you are a racist.
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Very Compelling. You could be a supreme court justice! You win, your intellect is dizzying. No more discussion needed.
Oh wait, I found a great comeback. Your a racist if you do not support this law. Hey I can do skepticsm too! |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 15:43:59 [Permalink]
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| From what I've heard arrests and deportation of illegal immigrants is up under Obama, but in the twisted world of the neocons and teabaggers it means that since he hasn't got everyone it means that he's not doing enough and the fact that he's doing more than his incompetent predecessor is completely ignored. In their world it's Republicans good, Democrats bad, no matter what the circumstance. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 15:50:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by leoofno
I never said I was driving.
As a passenger I am not required to have a drivers license. Are you saying I should because the police can detain me if they think I might be illegal and I don't have one? Requiring that I always carry evidence of citizenship seems very un-American to me.
Again, what criteria would law enforvement use to determine that I might be illegal? I suspect that it would be based on my looking hispanic and not having some evidence of citizenship on me.
Federal or state, such a law is wrong, IMHO. The "State" should not have the right to detain citizens simply because of the way they look and because they do not have the right papers. Frankly, I'm surprised that anyone thinks its OK.
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Because this is not what the law states. It prohibits detaining anybody for the sole reason that they suspect they are illegal. If you are a passenger the law prohibits law enforcement to inquire of your status. Please read the text of the law. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 15:57:03 [Permalink]
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So you carry an official sealed and notarized copy of your birth certificate in your wallet? That's interesting.
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Dude, you are just being ridiculous now. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 16:09:08 [Permalink]
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Because of several reasons. Mainly, illegal immigration is a federal issue. It's jurisdictional. The enforcement of it must come from federal agencies, not state and local police. The current federal laws are not enforced because the huge majority of people who own businesses do not want it enforced, and these are the people that contribute to political campaigns, help organize on the ground, have the ear of local and federal level politicians, and all that. Republicans had 8 years of Bush (6 of which they also owned congress) to enact as much border and immigration reform as they wanted. How much of that got done? Hmmmm, oh, yeah, none.
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Now this is a good point to argue.
The Feds have done nothing. It's time to shit or get off the pot. I have absolutely no problem with AZ taking the matter into their own hands. It is necessary. I give a flying rats ass about jurisdiction. They have been forced into this. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 16:12:22 [Permalink]
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Unfortunately the AZ law is going have to use ethnic profiling. And the ethnicity in question is latino, not asian, african, or european. If you break the law or there is a legal reason for the officer to question you (been on the receiving end of that) and you are latino, they will ask for proof of immigration status.
Profiling for me is fine if applied across the board, i.e. pulling over ever truck with a gun rack and/or star&bars becuase you fit the profile of a KKK member.
On another note, since the enforcement of immigration is a Federal role, wouldn't sanctuary cities be in violation of Federal immigration law? It goes both ways. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 16:48:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rubicon95
On another note, since the enforcement of immigration is a Federal role, wouldn't sanctuary cities be in violation of Federal immigration law? It goes both ways.
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Yeah, See my video earlier in the thread. Gibbs was stumped on this one. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 19:43:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I never said I was driving.
As a passenger I am not required to have a drivers license. Are you saying I should because the police can detain me if they think I might be illegal and I don't have one? Requiring that I always carry evidence of citizenship seems very un-American to me.
Again, what criteria would law enforvement use to determine that I might be illegal? I suspect that it would be based on my looking hispanic and not having some evidence of citizenship on me.
Federal or state, such a law is wrong, IMHO. The "State" should not have the right to detain citizens simply because of the way they look and because they do not have the right papers. Frankly, I'm surprised that anyone thinks its OK. |
Oh fer da cryin' out loud.... yet another person who thinks that Arizona is just going to send the police out in full force to question every hispanic looking person they come into contact with. That is not the intention.
I'm finding it impossible to argue with the " DOOM TO ALL HISPANICS IN ARIZONA" mentality.
BTW, I don't know about everybody else but I ALWAYS have my billfold on me....my drivers license, my SS card, my library card are all in there. I fail to see why it is such a big deal to have your ID on you. I thought it was normal to have your ID on you...apparently not
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You misrepresent my position. I do not think that "Arizona is just going to send the police out in full force to question every hispanic looking person they come into contact with." Nor do I believe that all hispanics are DOOMED. I fully understand that police detention of suspected illegal aliens will only happen in concert with legetimate illegal activities. However, I suspect that I need only be incidentally involved in the illegal activity (i,e., a passenger in a car pulled over for running a red light). I only question:
1. The criteria by which they will express suspicion of illegality
2. The apparent requirement that those so suspected need to have evidence of citizenship (note, I do not say proof)or be detained.
Please tell me how #1 will not involve racial profiling. I'm serious, if you can give me a reasonable idea of how you can do this I will reevaluate my position.
And please tell me why requiring that I carry evidence of citizenship is not a violation of my rights? |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 19:56:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
So you carry an official sealed and notarized copy of your birth certificate in your wallet? That's interesting.
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Dude, you are just being ridiculous now.
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No, because that is the only document that proves you are a citizen. All the other crap you have (SS Card, drivers license, etc) can be obtained with a photocopy of your birth certificate(or another document that required a copy of your birth certificate), which proves only thhat you have access to a photocpoier.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 19:59:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dude
Because if you support this law, you are a racist.
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Very Compelling. You could be a supreme court justice! You win, your intellect is dizzying. No more discussion needed.
Oh wait, I found a great comeback. Your a racist if you do not support this law. Hey I can do skepticsm too!
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Cherrypicking to try and misdirect away from your racism so you don't have to acknowledge it. Nope, looks like you aren't doing so well at the skepticism thing, but you are working on your racist apologetics.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 21:57:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
The Feds have done nothing. It's time to shit or get off the pot. I have absolutely no problem with AZ taking the matter into their own hands. It is necessary. I give a flying rats ass about jurisdiction. They have been forced into this. |
I'm all for this sort of vigilantism... in masturbatory nationalist fantasy fiction where "The Feds" have no connection whatsoever to the governed.
Who is it, exactly, who is arguing against immigration reform and budget responsibility which both could allow "The Feds" to act? It seems to me that at a Federal level, Arizona citizens vote against the things they want, by doing things like re-electing McCain. To then claim that they are victims is beyond disingenuous. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Governor reveals new AZ police uniform
