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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
 Posted - 07/09/2010 : 01:42:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
So you carry an official sealed and notarized copy of your birth certificate in your wallet? That's interesting.
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Dude, you are just being ridiculous now.
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No, because that is the only document that proves you are a citizen. All the other crap you have (SS Card, drivers license, etc) can be obtained with a photocopy of your birth certificate(or another document that required a copy of your birth certificate), which proves only thhat you have access to a photocpoier.
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Are you guys really that primitive? Seriously, in the Netherlands when I go to the municipality to get an ID-card or passport, they will pull up those documents digitally. The municipality where I am registered has the ability to do that. That's not the case in the US? Seems pretty backward to me, quite frankly.
And yes, we are required to be able to carry an identifying card on us (either an ID-card, passport, driver's license or equivalent), although the police cannot ask for it without cause.
That latter part is what would worry me about the Arizona law. The second paragraph (I think, looked at it yesterday) states that the police can ask for ID if there is a suspicion that you are an illegal immigrant. That would be far too vague for my liking. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/09/2010 : 03:04:33 [Permalink]
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I must remind; it has already happened, and well before Brewer signed the bill into law.
The shape of things to come? Sure looks like it. And this incident happened before Gov. Jan Brewer signed the SB1070 into law on Friday. Video and story from AzFamily.com.
PHOENIX – A Valley man says he was pulled over Wednesday morning and questioned when he arrived at a weigh station for his commercial vehicle along Val Vista and the 202 freeway.
Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.
He tells 3TV, “I don't think it's correct, if I have to take my birth certificate with me all the time.”
3TV caught up with Abdon after he was released from the Immigration and Customs Enforcement office in central Phoenix. He and his wife, Jackie, are still upset about what happened to him.
Jackie tells 3TV, “It's still something awful to be targeted. I can't even imagine what he felt, people watching like he was some type of criminal.”
Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.
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Does anyone really think that this won't become SOP among some AZ cops?
And not just latinos; anybody can get hassled for citizenship if a cop at a traffic stop feels like it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 03:52:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I must remind; it has already happened, and well before Brewer signed the bill into law.
The shape of things to come? Sure looks like it. And this incident happened before Gov. Jan Brewer signed the SB1070 into law on Friday. Video and story from AzFamily.com.
PHOENIX – A Valley man says he was pulled over Wednesday morning and questioned when he arrived at a weigh station for his commercial vehicle along Val Vista and the 202 freeway.
Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.
He tells 3TV, “I don't think it's correct, if I have to take my birth certificate with me all the time.”
3TV caught up with Abdon after he was released from the Immigration and Customs Enforcement office in central Phoenix. He and his wife, Jackie, are still upset about what happened to him.
Jackie tells 3TV, “It's still something awful to be targeted. I can't even imagine what he felt, people watching like he was some type of criminal.”
Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.
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Does anyone really think that this won't become SOP among some AZ cops?
And not just latinos; anybody can get hassled for citizenship if a cop at a traffic stop feels like it.
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Agreed it is ridiculous. A valid drivers license or SS card should be enough. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 04:15:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I'm all for this sort of vigilantism... in masturbatory nationalist fantasy fiction where "The Feds" have no connection whatsoever to the governed. |
I guess we have found another major philosophical difference between you and I. I am not against vigilantism when it is needed. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 04:56:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I guess we have found another major philosophical difference between you and I. I am not against vigilantism when it is needed.
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Who decides when it is needed? Who guarantees that it will actually lead to just punishment, instead of a mob mentality against those not fitting in with the majority. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 05:14:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I guess we have found another major philosophical difference between you and I. I am not against vigilantism when it is needed.
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Who decides when it is needed? Who guarantees that it will actually lead to just punishment, instead of a mob mentality against those not fitting in with the majority.
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I decide those things. My philosophy is not logically perfect....but show me any philosophy that is. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 05:37:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
That latter part is what would worry me about the Arizona law. The second paragraph (I think, looked at it yesterday) states that the police can ask for ID if there is a suspicion that you are an illegal immigrant. That would be far too vague for my liking.
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Can you show me where you found this? I could not find it. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 06:38:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by tomk80
That latter part is what would worry me about the Arizona law. The second paragraph (I think, looked at it yesterday) states that the police can ask for ID if there is a suspicion that you are an illegal immigrant. That would be far too vague for my liking.
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Can you show me where you found this? I could not find it.
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B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).
Although my paraphrase is a bit clumsy, how I read this the police can, when in contact with a citizen for whatever reason, try to determine whether he is there illegally. The problem I have with this paragraph are twofold:
1) "Reasonable suspicion": not defined well. Either define it better or include it for everyone. In the dutch situation this would be, either you always ask for ID in a certain situation, or you don't. The way it is written now is way too vague to prevent racial profiling. In the Netherlands, when you get a fine for whatever reason, the police will always ask for your ID. No weaseling. This prevents racial profiling.
2) Same for "reasonable attempt, when practicable". Is the Abson incident considered a reasonable attempt? Reasonable for whom? The police or the accused? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 07:52:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dude
Because if you support this law, you are a racist.
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Very Compelling. You could be a supreme court justice! You win, your intellect is dizzying. No more discussion needed.
Oh wait, I found a great comeback. Your a racist if you do not support this law. Hey I can do skepticsm too!
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Cherrypicking to try and misdirect away from your racism so you don't have to acknowledge it. Nope, looks like you aren't doing so well at the skepticism thing, but you are working on your racist apologetics.
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I guess I am a racist because there is not enough diversity among the people that are here illegally. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 07:57:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by tomk80
That latter part is what would worry me about the Arizona law. The second paragraph (I think, looked at it yesterday) states that the police can ask for ID if there is a suspicion that you are an illegal immigrant. That would be far too vague for my liking.
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Can you show me where you found this? I could not find it.
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B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).
Although my paraphrase is a bit clumsy, how I read this the police can, when in contact with a citizen for whatever reason, try to determine whether he is there illegally. The problem I have with this paragraph are twofold:
1) "Reasonable suspicion": not defined well. Either define it better or include it for everyone. In the dutch situation this would be, either you always ask for ID in a certain situation, or you don't. The way it is written now is way too vague to prevent racial profiling. In the Netherlands, when you get a fine for whatever reason, the police will always ask for your ID. No weaseling. This prevents racial profiling.
2) Same for "reasonable attempt, when practicable". Is the Abson incident considered a reasonable attempt? Reasonable for whom? The police or the accused?
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I can agree with you that maybe these issues need to be defined better. The law does state that there must be lawful contact before anything can be done by law enforcement. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 09:04:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dude
Because if you support this law, you are a racist.
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Very Compelling. You could be a supreme court justice! You win, your intellect is dizzying. No more discussion needed.
Oh wait, I found a great comeback. Your a racist if you do not support this law. Hey I can do skepticsm too!
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Cherrypicking to try and misdirect away from your racism so you don't have to acknowledge it. Nope, looks like you aren't doing so well at the skepticism thing, but you are working on your racist apologetics.
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I guess I am a racist because there is not enough diversity among the people that are here illegally.
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Even though this is not part of what I was discussing I'm going to chime in here.
I'm calling bullshit on the whole racist accusations thing. Lets see....at this point in history the majority of illegal immigrants are what????......latino?! People who fly airplanes into buildings are mostly what?!......middle eaatern? How much sense does it make to question middle aged suburban housewives? We've got tp be practical at some point.
An interesting anecdote (to me anyway)
A few years ago my buddy and I flew to Vegas. We are of the same height,weight, build, and were both wearing long black leather coats. The only difference is that I have a full head of hair and he is shaved bald. He got stopped and thoroughly searched at EVERY checkpoint while I walked through without any incident.
Sounds like profiling to me. We didn't care. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 09:52:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I guess we have found another major philosophical difference between you and I. I am not against vigilantism when it is needed.
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And| I decide those things. My philosophy is not logically perfect....but show me any philosophy that is. |
Nobody is asking for perfection, just protection against abuse and an acknowledgment that our Constitution protects the rights of people, and not citizens.
Say there's a Hindu family that purchased, without visiting, a foreclosed-on home in a deeply fundamentalist Christian town. When they move in, curious neighbors see the small statues of Ganesha and Vishnu being carried into the home. The neighbors call the police and ask for the "heathens" and/or "Satanists" to be removed. The police, of course, refuse. Since a clear threat to their insulated way-of-life has moved in next door, and the authorities refuse to do anything to fix this unlivable situation, is it okay for the neighbors to take justice into their own hands and run the Hindu family out of town? The townspeople would certainly consider it "needed." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 10:13:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I guess we have found another major philosophical difference between you and I. I am not against vigilantism when it is needed.
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And| I decide those things. My philosophy is not logically perfect....but show me any philosophy that is. |
Nobody is asking for perfection, just protection against abuse and an acknowledgment that our Constitution protects the rights of people, and not citizens.
Say there's a Hindu family that purchased, without visiting, a foreclosed-on home in a deeply fundamentalist Christian town. When they move in, curious neighbors see the small statues of Ganesha and Vishnu being carried into the home. The neighbors call the police and ask for the "heathens" and/or "Satanists" to be removed. The police, of course, refuse. Since a clear threat to their insulated way-of-life has moved in next door, and the authorities refuse to do anything to fix this unlivable situation, is it okay for the neighbors to take justice into their own hands and run the Hindu family out of town? The townspeople would certainly consider it "needed."
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I understand the point you are illustrating but it is very different than the subject at hand. Situation ethics come into play here. I agree that the example Filthy provided was a wrong thing to do. The fellow's valid commercial drivers license should have been plenty to prove his citizenship. Obviously what is accepted as valid citizenship documentation needs to be defined more accurately.
The example you provided is also wrong but in a very different way. In that situation education of the ignorant would need to be provided.
Arizona is having a real problem with crime that is clearly the result of unregulated illegal immigration. Something has to be done about and I do not think what they are doing is extreme at all. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 10:16:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I can agree with you that maybe these issues need to be defined better. |
Not just "better," but with regard to the way policing has been done for a long time in this country. Sections 2B and 4E lower the bar from "probable cause" to "reasonable suspicion." Section 3A makes being in the country illegally a state crime (trespassing), allowing the police a "reasonable suspicion" of anyone who merely looks or sounds foreign of being a criminal.| The law does state that there must be lawful contact before anything can be done by law enforcement. |
Which basically means that the police can't violate the Fourth Amendment by searching houses or cars for illegal aliens without a warrant. But a cop walking through a music festival or a open farm market can have "legal contact" with everyone similarly walking around in public, just by saying "hi." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 10:44:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I understand the point you are illustrating but it is very different than the subject at hand. Situation ethics come into play here. I agree that the example Filthy provided was a wrong thing to do. The fellow's valid commercial drivers license should have been plenty to prove his citizenship. Obviously what is accepted as valid citizenship documentation needs to be defined more accurately.
The example you provided is also wrong but in a very different way. In that situation education of the ignorant would need to be provided. |
None of those qualifiers was evident before. You just indicated that you get to decide when you being a vigilante is "needed." What if, in some situation, you're one of the ignorant? By definition, you wouldn't know it, and thus you would feel justified in taking the law into your own hands. Perhaps later you might get educated and learn that you acted wrongly, but perhaps not.
This is why we have police and the courts - people who are trained in the enforcement and adjudication of our laws - so that the ignorant don't screw things up. And that's also why corruption within the courts or the cops is such a nasty thing.| Arizona is having a real problem with crime that is clearly the result of unregulated illegal immigration. |
Is it? I have yet to see evidence of this. And by "crime," the data would have to predate this new law, which makes being an illegal immigrant a crime (in other words, as soon as the law goes into effect, 100% of illegal immigrants will be committing crimes in Arizona).| Something has to be done about and I do not think what they are doing is extreme at all. |
It doesn't have to be "extreme" to be unconstitutional. A teacher leading kids in a prayer in school isn't "extreme" but is definitely unconstitutional. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Governor reveals new AZ police uniform
