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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 03/28/2011 : 07:28:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by alienist
I agree the US should not be policeman to the world. The difference with Libya and the 1st Gulf war is that we are in a coalition with other countries and not leading the attacks. the drawbacks are of course money and image. There are some disadvantages in not joining other countries against Qaddaffi. Acc to history, when it comes to these kind of military actions, Congress is usually not consulted
The problems with getting rid of dictators, is that it can often lead to chaos in that country. However, Libya is different than Iraq is that it has a lot of different tribes and tribal alliances. It is important to remember each Arab and or Muslim country is different. There are probably more similarities between the US and the UK than there is between Libya and Iraq.
Al Qaeda is not anywhere close to being as organized as they were before 2001. I am more considered about Pakistan. There is also a concern about Iran, but I am not sure they can come up with nuclear weapons before thier economy fall apart. It is very difficult and expensive to build nuclear weapons and their delivery systems
These are just my random thoughts, so please excuse the disorganized presentation.
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MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia said on Monday attacks on forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi amounted to intervention in a civil war and were not backed by the U.N. resolution authorising no-fly zones.
In the latest Russian criticism of military action by the Western-led coalition, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the resolution passed by the U.N. Security Council on March 17 had the sole aim of protecting Libyan civilians.
http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE72R0EL20110328?sp=true
Here we see Russia accusing us of going beyond the mandates and authorization given by the UN and criticizing us for what essentially is us butting our nose into a civil war. I am going to have to say that on many levels I agree with them and their criticism. We have no business being there in the first place and we are going to end up getting those in power who are, at best, no better than the current terrorist's in charge and, at worst, we are going to a have a worse situation than what we started with. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 09:26:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
No. That was my whole point that you just agreed with. |
No, actually, it wasn't.| We don't need to be siding with anybody. Not the terrorist leader running the country and the not the terrorist organization trying to overthrow him. This is a domestic issue for Libya and we should not and cannot be getting involved in all these countries domestic issues with our military. We need to go back to using our military to defending the boarders against invading nations both here and abroad. No more of this being the world's policemen. |
We could cut waaay back on defense spending if we did that. Defense contractors would be pissed.| And no more acting on orders from the UN and ignoring the congress. |
Where do you get this nonsense from?| That action has now got us flying air cover and assisting al-Queda in Libya. |
No, that's what I meant by "siding with a known terrorist." We only have the one guy's word that Al Qaeda has had anything to do with the Libyan uprising. I'm not inclined to believe him, since the propaganda value is so high.| Why do you hate America, Bill? |
OK now you are just being stupid for theatrics, why? |
You're the one giving credence to the statements of a single terrorist which, if true, would be detrimental to the US.I think we pretty much agree on this issue:
A: We should not even be there in the first place helping al-Queda |
I'd be more likely to agree if you had left off the theatrics and ended the sentence at "place."| B: The president should have to go through congress before making such decisions as to bomb other countries. |
I won't agree with that. In this particular case, since the lead-up was so long, the President should have (several weeks ago) been having discussions with Congressional leadership about what course of action the US might follow if a UN resolution creating a no-fly zone (or worse) were to be passed. It's not like we had no warning that such a resolution was coming.
I'm not about to advocate that the WPR be changed, since that would strip us of our quick-response capabilities. The US doesn't need to be the world's policeman, but the US military doesn't need to be hamstrung by Congress, either.
Also, in my opinion, in this particular case, combat operations should have been left to Italy and other countries much friendlier with Libya than we've been. I wouldn't mind the US playing a support role, but we should have let all the bombs and munitions have little European flags on them.| Leaving this up to the UN and the president now has us flying air cover for al-Quada. |
So says one terrorist. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 10:22:19 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
Yes, it was. It's my point, I should know.
| We could cut waaay back on defense spending if we did that. Defense contractors would be pissed. |
Yeah, let's keep invading Muslim countries to keep up the military contracts, just what I was saying. *sigh*
| Where do you get this nonsense from? |
Obama has authorization from the UN for military operations in Liyba, but not that of his own congress. That is retarded on our part, even if legal.
| No, that's what I meant by "siding with a known terrorist." We only have the one guy's word that Al Qaeda has had anything to do with the Libyan uprising. I'm not inclined to believe him, since the propaganda value is so high. |
The one terrorist is the leader of the rebellion. And he has nothing to gain by informing everyone that al-Qaeda is part of the rebellion. In fact he risks loosing support from the west and their air cover, by doing so. Really if this dude was smart he would shut up about al-Qaeda being involved in the fight. At least until they don't need anymore air cover from the US and her allies. Then they will turn on us as we will than be the infidel invaders
| You're the one giving credence to the statements of a single terrorist which, if true, would be detrimental to the US. |
To bad this terrorist is the leader of the rebellion and has nothing to gain by revealing that al-Qaeda is involved in the rebellion.
| I won't agree with that. In this particular case, since the lead-up was so long, the President should have (several weeks ago) been having discussions with Congressional leadership about what course of action the US might follow if a UN resolution creating a no-fly zone (or worse) were to be passed. It's not like we had no warning that such a resolution was coming. |
Exactly, rather than the bomb first and make plans later approach that we have taken.
| I'm not about to advocate that the WPR be changed, since that would strip us of our quick-response capabilities. The US doesn't need to be the world's policeman, but the US military doesn't need to be hamstrung by Congress, either. |
Right, bomb first and ask questions later. Like who is going to fill the vacuum we leave after toppling the government? What are the results of our bombing actions going to be? After the fact is putting the cart in front of the horse
| Also, in my opinion, in this particular case, combat operations should have been left to Italy and other countries much friendlier with Libya than we've been. I wouldn't mind the US playing a support role, but we should have let all the bombs and munitions have little European flags on them. |
What and let the European's topple Libya for al-Qaeda rather than us? Don't try to appease the fanatics, it will never work.
| Leaving this up to the UN and the president now has us flying air cover for al-Quada. |
So says one terrorist. |
First of all this one terrorist is the leader of the rebellion. And before the military action even began do you not even consider that this could be the out come? Certainly we had some forethought as to what would happen to Libya and who would fill the vacuum if we helped topple the country? And we would be fools if we never took into consideration al-Qaeda and the Muslim brotherhood playing roles in this vacuum fill. So don't act all supprised that the rebellion is being led by al-Qaeda
Earlier this month, al-Qaeda issued a call for supporters to back the Libyan rebellion, which it said would lead to the imposition of "the stage of Islam" in the country.
Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.
In an interview with the Italian newspaper Il Sole 24 Ore, Mr al-Hasidi admitted that he had recruited "around 25" men from the Derna area in eastern Libya to fight against coalition troops in Iraq. Some of them, he said, are "today are on the front lines in Adjabiya".
Mr al-Hasidi insisted his fighters "are patriots and good Muslims, not terrorists," but added that the "members of al-Qaeda are also good Muslims and are fighting against the invader".
His revelations came even as Idriss Deby Itno, Chad's president, said al-Qaeda had managed to pillage military arsenals in the Libyan rebel zone and acquired arms, "including surface-to-air missiles, which were then smuggled into their sanctuaries".
Mr al-Hasidi admitted he had earlier fought against "the foreign invasion" in Afghanistan, before being "captured in 2002 in Peshwar, in Pakistan". He was later handed over to the US, and then held in Libya before being released in 2008.
US and British government sources said Mr al-Hasidi was a member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, or LIFG, which killed dozens of Libyan troops in guerrilla attacks around Derna and Benghazi in 1995 and 1996
http://tinyurl.com/4a89ea5
Your rebel leader is a well known al-Qaeda operative and organizer and the US is flying air cover for he and his recruits. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 03/28/2011 10:53:14 |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 10:33:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Bill scott
We don't need to be siding with anybody. Not the terrorist leader running the country and the not the terrorist organization trying to overthrow him. This is a domestic issue for Libya and we should not and cannot be getting involved in all these countries domestic issues with our military. We need to go back to using our military to defending the boarders against invading nations both here and abroad. No more of this being the world's policemen. |
We could cut waaay back on defense spending if we did that. Defense contractors would be pissed. |
Not to mention the Senators and Congressmen who represent areas dependent on defense industry jobs.
Who says a terrorist organization is trying to overthrow Gaddafi? The conflict is between Gaddafi and protestors trying to make him leave office immediately. All we have is one unreliable source claiming al Qaeada may be helping. |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 11:05:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Yes, it was. It's my point, I should know. |
Then you completely missed my point.| We could cut waaay back on defense spending if we did that. Defense contractors would be pissed. |
Yeah, let's keep invading Muslim countries to keep up the military contracts, just what I was saying. *sigh* |
I was pointing out that there would be intense lobbying of/from Congress to maintain the status quo.| Where do you get this nonsense from? |
Obama has authorization from the UN for military operations in Liyba... |
Yes. "Authorization from" is not "orders."| ...but not that of his own congress. |
Actually, Congress gave the President the power to go to war with nothing more than an authorization from the UN. So Congress did authorize it.| The one terrorist is the leader of the rebellion. |
Oh, come on, Bill. The only source that claims that Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi is "the leader of the rebellion" is that single news article you keep quoting. Everything else I can find mentioning his name is just copying that piece. Attempts to Google up the command structure of the Libyan opposition always mentions "leaderS."| And he has nothing to gain by informing everyone that al-Qaeda is part of the rebellion. |
If he's lying by claiming to be the opposition leader, he has quite a bit to gain.| In fact he risks loosing support from the west and their air cover, by doing so. |
I doubt he is even in Libya.| To bad this terrorist is the leader of the rebellion and has nothing to gain by revealing that al-Qaeda is involved in the rebellion. |
All based on a single source: the terrorist himself. No wonder you're so hooked on the Bible.| I won't agree with that. In this particular case, since the lead-up was so long, the President should have (several weeks ago) been having discussions with Congressional leadership about what course of action the US might follow if a UN resolution creating a no-fly zone (or worse) were to be passed. It's not like we had no warning that such a resolution was coming. |
Exactly, rather than the bomb first and make plans later approach that we have taken. |
Does all you know come in sound bites?| Right, bomb first and ask questions later. |
Example B.| Like who is going to fill the vacuum we leave after toppling the government? |
Who says we're going to topple the governemtn?| What are the results of our bombing actions going to be? |
An inability for the Libyan government to get warplanes off the ground with which to slaughter civilians who might oppose them even non-violently.| After the fact is putting the cart in front of the horse |
Who said it's "after the fact?"| What and let the European's topple Libya for al-Qaeda rather than us? |
Why do you think that Libya will be toppled? Why do you insist that Al Qaeda will win?| Don't try to appease the fanatics, it will never work. |
You're just insistent upon spreading the terrorist's propaganda, aren't you? You've fallen for it hook, line and sinker.| First of all this one terrorist is the leader of the rebellion. |
So says the one terrorist.| And before the military action even began do you not even consider that this could be the out come? |
It wouldn't be different if we'd stayed out of it.| Certainly we had some forethought as to what would happen to Libya and who would fill the vacuum if we helped topple the country? |
Who is talking about toppling the country?| And we would be fools if we never took into consideration al-Qaeda and the Muslim brotherhood playing roles in this vacuum fill. |
Who is saying that US leadership hasn't done so?| So don't act all supprised that the rebellion is being led by al-Qaeda |
I'm just surprised that you're being taken in by what appear to be Al Qaeda lies, is all.| Your rebel leader is a well known al-Qaeda operative and organizer and the US is flying air cover for he and his recruits. |
That's what he wants you to think, yes. Where is the evidence that what your favorite terrorist says is true? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 11:08:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by podcat
All we have is one unreliable source claiming al Qaeada may be helping. |
Exactly. I'd like to see one independent report dating earlier than March 24 that says Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi is "the rebel leader," or had anything whatsoever to do with the opposition in Libya. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 11:10:25 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by podcat |
| Who says a terrorist organization is trying to overthrow Gaddafi? |
Um, Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader himself. Well actually he says al-Qaeda is made up of good muslims and not terrorists. But the rest of the world calls them terrorists.
http://tinyurl.com/4a89ea5
| The conflict is between Gaddafi and protestors trying to make him leave office immediately. |
Just because you say so does not mean that we can dismiss with a hand wave the leader of the Libyan rebel forces, who says the opposite of you. The goal is clear here which it said would lead to the imposition of "the stage of Islam" in the country.
| All we have is one unreliable source claiming al Qaeada may be helping. |
Wrong. We have a very reliable source who says al-Qaeda is helping and this guy just so happens to be the leader of the rebellion. What on earth could he gain by lying about all of this while the allies are providing his air cover and in all reality his victory? He risks loosing support of the allies by sharing that al-Qaeda is part of the rebellion. We attack Iraq and al-Qaeda calls for Jihad and fighters come to Iraq, we attack Afgainistan and al-Quaeda fighters flock there for Jihad. What makes you think if we attack Libya this will be any different? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 11:45:18 [Permalink]
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| All we have is one article quoting another article in which he says so. Leader of which Libyan rebel force? There are several. |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 12:28:32 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Actually, Congress gave the President the power to go to war with nothing more than an authorization from the UN. So Congress did authorize it. |
Oh stop beating a dead horse. I agreed that what Obama did appears to be legal but than stated that I still don't like and you agreed with me.
| Oh, come on, Bill. The only source that claims that Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi is "the leader of the rebellion" is that single news article you keep quoting. Everything else I can find mentioning his name is just copying that piece. Attempts to Google up the command structure of the Libyan opposition always mentions "leaderS." |
Ok lets see, al-Qaeda shows up in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistani etc... anywhere they think they can get their foot in the door and anywhere they have a chance to battle the infidel invaders. We have media reporting the name of the Libyan rebel leader, who has already fought the US in Iraq and Afghanistan saying the rebels are fighting alongside al-Qaeda and vice a versa. We have multiple media sources who have picked up the story so we have reasonable evidence to believe that al-Qaeda is in the fight. But this should surprise no one. The question is now what to do about al-Qaeda once the current terroist group running the show falls? Just let them have their way or send boots into Liyba to fight al-Qaeda.
| If he's lying by claiming to be the opposition leader, he has quite a bit to gain. |
But he has nothing to gain by claiming that al-Qaeda is in the fight while he is still completely dependent on air cover from the allies.
| You're just insistent upon spreading the terrorist's propaganda, aren't you? You've fallen for it hook, line and sinker |
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I will agree that we are both speculating as to whether al-Qaeda is part of the rebellion in Libya or not. But I would say the evidence that they are in Libya far out weighs any evidence that says other wise. But you and I can sit here and go round and round on whether they are or not and we will get no where, it will all still be speculation. I am a patient man so lets just give this a few days, weeks or months to play out and then we will know for sure.
My prediction is that al-Qaeda is heavily involved in the rebellion. And if/when the current leadership falls they will be on the front line battling for control and influence of Libya. And once our air cover is no longer needed we will be right back to being the invading infidels in their eyes. And any influence we try to have on the shaping of the new leadership in Libya will be meet with heavy resistance from al-Qaeda and their supporters including all out jihad.
I sure hope the president has thought this through and knows who is going to have the upper hand in gaining control after the fall of the current regime. If someone bad, such as al-Qaeda, is there waiting to fill the vacuum it's bad news for us. If so our only choice will be to let it happen or open yet another gorilla war. Only time will tell. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 15:11:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
We have media reporting the name of the Libyan rebel leader... |
No, we have the media reporting that an Al Qaeda member is claiming to be a Libyan rebel leader. I can find no independent confirmation that Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi is involved with the Libyan opposition in any way at all. And since he's got a lot to gain by lying about it, I see no reason to believe him.| We have multiple media sources who have picked up the story... |
We have multiple media sources copying almost verbatim from The Telegraph.| ...so we have reasonable evidence... |
No, we only have the one interview with Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi. There is no independent confirmation.| ...to believe that al-Qaeda is in the fight. |
Well, we have no reason to doubt that, considering (as you've noted) that they try to get their fingers in all sorts of pies. But you've been repeating the claim that Al Qaeda is leading the opposition.| If he's lying by claiming to be the opposition leader, he has quite a bit to gain. |
But he has nothing to gain by claiming that al-Qaeda is in the fight while he is still completely dependent on air cover from the allies. |
He has everything to gain in terms of recruits who will want to go into Libya to fight the infidel West. Having air cover supplied by the US is a selling point, since the new recruits can laugh at and car bomb the very people who are protecting them from Gaddahfi's air assaults.| I will agree that we are both speculating as to whether al-Qaeda is part of the rebellion in Libya or not. |
I'm not speculating. I'm saying that Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi has good reasons to lie about being "the rebel leader" in Libya.| But I would say the evidence that they are in Libya far out weighs any evidence that says other wise. |
But that's not what you've been claiming. You're back-pedaling. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 15:39:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Iraq was not a military threat against neither USA nor its allies.
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So why are we in Libya?
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Because United Nations asked for help in protecting the civilian population from an evil dictator who were bombing them to secure his seat in power againt a democratic movement.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 18:44:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I sure hope the president has thought this through and knows who is going to have the upper hand in gaining control after the fall of the current regime. |
I don't know why you're dumping all of the responsibility on Obama's shoulders, anyway. The UN, NATO and the Arab League were all saying, "this needs to stop, let's implement a no-fly zone." Several commentators, earlier today, said that we probably would not be leading the campaign if the British and the French hasn't asked us to, specifically.
This contrasts very highly with Bush II's invasion of Iraq, in which the US was going, "come on, everybody!" and our long-time allies sent little more than token support, and teensy-tiny countries thought they were doing us favors by sending in 17 shipping clerks.| If someone bad, such as al-Qaeda, is there waiting to fill the vacuum it's bad news for us. |
Why for us, specifically?| If so our only choice will be to let it happen or open yet another gorilla war. |
No, given the other countries involved, we will have other choices than that, including (for once) telling other people that they need to clean up the mess. Maybe they'll be better at it than we've been.True, but things don't seem nearly as dire as you think. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2011 : 05:16:29 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| We have media reporting the name of the Libyan rebel leader... |
No, we have the media reporting that an Al Qaeda member is claiming to be a Libyan rebel leader. I can find no independent confirmation that Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi is involved with the Libyan opposition in any way at all. And since he's got a lot to gain by lying about it, I see no reason to believe him.
We have multiple media sources copying almost verbatim from The Telegraph.
No, we only have the one interview with Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi. There is no independent confirmation. |
OK I see your point. Right now there is only the one source claiming Abdel as the rebel leader and many others quoting the same source. So while I can say, based on past history, that we must assume al-Qaeda is in libya, and if not they will will be soon, I do not know for a fact that Abdel is the supreme rebel leader at this point.
I think you agree though that we have to assume that al-Qaeda is going to be a player in this game on some level when you say this:
| Well, we have no reason to doubt that, considering (as you've noted) that they try to get their fingers in all sorts of pies. |
| I don't know why you're dumping all of the responsibility on Obama's shoulders, anyway. The UN, NATO and the Arab League were all saying, "this needs to stop, let's implement a no-fly zone." Several commentators, earlier today, said that we probably would not be leading the campaign if the British and the French hasn't asked us to, specifically. |
Because Obama is responsible for America and our solders who we send in harms way, Not the UN, NATO or the Arab League.
| If someone bad, such as al-Qaeda, is there waiting to fill the vacuum it's bad news for us. |
Why for us, specifically? |
Because we help put them in there and we are the ones already perceived by others as the world's policemen or bully and so this will work against all the US appeasing Obama has tried to portray for the Muslim community, unless you are talking to a pro al-Qaeda Muslim that is.
| No, given the other countries involved, we will have other choices than that, including (for once) telling other people that they need to clean up the mess. Maybe they'll be better at it than we've been. |
You really think that will happen? I mean you just said this:
| This contrasts very highly with Bush II's invasion of Iraq, in which the US was going, "come on, everybody!" and our long-time allies sent little more than token support, and teensy-tiny countries thought they were doing us favors by sending in 17 shipping clerks. |
It's early but fear is that we are going to get sucked into another ground war to defeat evil forces who are filling the vacuum left by Mommar and it will be US personal going in to try and clean up the mess left in the vacuum of the fallen regime.
True, but things don't seem nearly as dire as you think. |
As long as we have not committed ground troops I will try to be as optimistic as you.
So really I think we are in pretty much agreement here as far as the action itself.
While it maybe legal I wish the president would have gone through congress and debated all the details and objectives before committing to military action and you said:
| Yes, Obama should have gotten real Congressional approval before committing to combat operations, |
And then I said:
| We are just getting ourselves deeper and deeper into a hole by trying to get involved in all the domestic issues of these Muslim countries. |
And you respond with:
So once through the tit for tat we see that you and I are just about the only ones on this thread, that I can tell, who think we are making a mistake and should not be there in Libya with our military. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2011 : 06:41:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
So once through the tit for tat we see that you and I are just about the only ones on this thread, that I can tell, who think we are making a mistake and should not be there in Libya with our military.
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I don't think you're making a mistake. The UN asked for a no-fly zone. For the first time in a long while USA is volunteering forces when asked to instead of unilaterally deciding to invade foreign countries to enforce Pax Americana. It is encouraging to see an American leader who isn't itching on the trigger finger, but can show restraint. While at the same time be a responsible member of the world community.
Now, if he could only respect the Geneva Convention and Human Rights, I could see some light at the end of the dark tunnel that is the US government. (Hint, start by closing Guantanamo and other CIA outsourced prisons around the world)
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2011 : 07:13:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Bill scott
So once through the tit for tat we see that you and I are just about the only ones on this thread, that I can tell, who think we are making a mistake and should not be there in Libya with our military.
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I don't think you're making a mistake. The UN asked for a no-fly zone. For the first time in a long while USA is volunteering forces when asked to instead of unilaterally deciding to invade foreign countries to enforce Pax Americana. It is encouraging to see an American leader who isn't itching on the trigger finger, but can show restraint. While at the same time be a responsible member of the world community.
Now, if he could only respect the Geneva Convention and Human Rights, I could see some light at the end of the dark tunnel that is the US government. (Hint, start by closing Guantanamo and other CIA outsourced prisons around the world)
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So right now we have UN approval to provide a no-fly zone to protect civilians. Russia already thinks we are violating our UN authorization by our determining the outcome of a civil war by attacking Mommar forces directly. But my question is what is the UN going to approve if and when al-Qaeda and the Muslium brotherhood and their supporters come in to fill the vacuum left by Mommar, just let it naturally unfold or approve boots on the ground to go in and battle al-Qaeda? And if so who's boots are you sending?
I think the USA is making a mistake by getting involved in yet another civil war and even the great Dave W. agrees with me there And where does it all stop? Under this banner we have many more countries to go out and attack if protecting citizens from their dictator leaders is the mission here in Libya. And if you feel so strongly about going in there then let's see some Swedish forces involved as well. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bombs away
