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 Even more missing mass… again!
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2012 :  11:23:35  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Continued from this thread
...and this one
...and the original

Edit: Insanely broken link, Story on MSNBC.com

Long story short, a vast gas bubble surrounds our galaxy, doubles the mass of the galaxy...

Told you so.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini

Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 09/26/2012 11:32:41

the_ignored
SFN Addict

2561 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2012 :  16:47:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So god has gas...?


>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1475 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2012 :  19:47:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doubles? Kewl.
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Randy
SFN Regular

USA
1990 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2012 :  20:29:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Randy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bigpappysmurf, the link isn't so terribly long.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49180935#.UGPHOo2PXng

Here it is in tiny form....
http://tinyurl.com/c6qa564

"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."

"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2012 :  03:53:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Told you so.
Double the mass of the whole visible universe, and we still live in a place that's over 68% dark.

Or are you just talking baryons?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2012 :  05:59:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
double post...

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 09/27/2012 06:01:57
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2012 :  06:01:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Told you so.
Double the mass of the whole visible universe, and we still live in a place that's over 68% dark.

Or are you just talking baryons?


Im working on it Dave, these sciency jerks are taking a long time. My strongly worded letters should encourage them. So far we gots a million light-year wide gas bubble and 40 or so dwarf galaxies in orbit. Still "92% of the universe is missing!" doesnt sound nearly as dire as 96%.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Norway
1270 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2012 :  06:29:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I still don't see why you have this certainty that there is no such thing as dark matter. Since you are not an expert in the field, why do you believe this so passionately?

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2012 :  06:48:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

I still don't see why you have this certainty that there is no such thing as dark matter. Since you are not an expert in the field, why do you believe this so passionately?


Oh I'm not certain of that at all, It's really about the absolute statements regarding the nature of DM and DE that get to me. In particular the idea that DE accounts for 80% of the mass of the universe, I feel that DE could very well be an unknown property of space time that accounts for 0% of the mass. DM doesnt bother me nearly as much.

Waiting for TT to come in and give his two cents. So Tim does this help account for the speed of the stars in the outer galaxy?

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Norway
1270 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2012 :  20:09:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
DE seems like less of a leap to me. Expanding without energy seems to be a bigger can of worms than expanding due to a mysterious energy.

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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2012 :  06:51:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

[quote]

I feel that DE could very well be an unknown property of space time that accounts for 0% of the mass. DM doesnt bother me nearly as much.


What we're talking about are Scientific theories. There are reasons, like 'observations' and data, for what they use to supports their scientific theories. Without facts or evidence they are just beliefs or theories but are never 'scientific theories'. The observable acceleration of the universe AND how it's not slowing do to the known mass it does contain is evidence. To accelerate any mass, which appears to be happening, one must add energy. An observable "Einstien Ring" is other evidence of DM. These are observable facts that support the notion of DE & DM, there are others.

That's what Theists bring to the table supporting their beliefs in God, faith. No evidence but feelings based on faith, that don't get it with science and discovering the truth.

So I have two questions BigPapaSmurf,,,
What are your reason/s to support your beliefs that it could be an "unknown property of space time"? Do you have anything that you can articulate here supporting your feeling or is it unreasonably based from not being based on evidence but based on faith without out evidence while ignoring existing data?

In our journey to find out what the truth is about our reality and the universe we live in it is better to do so with our eyes open and not closed. We also should not have blinders on so we can ignore what we don't like as theists wear. We must use evidence to base our scientific theories on. We should never use 'faith', which is defined as a belief that is not based on proof with evidence but used when there is an absence of evidence.


Edited: last paragraph for better clarity.

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
Edited by - sailingsoul on 09/28/2012 18:27:50
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Norway
1270 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2012 :  06:00:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Based on what I read about this, the missing Baryon problem has nothing to do with dark matter, and this discovery doesn't change the theorised ratio of matter to dark matter at all.

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2012 :  05:45:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

[quote]

I feel that DE could very well be an unknown property of space time that accounts for 0% of the mass. DM doesnt bother me nearly as much.


What we're talking about are Scientific theories. There are reasons, like 'observations' and data, for what they use to supports their scientific theories. Without facts or evidence they are just beliefs or theories but are never 'scientific theories'. The observable acceleration of the universe AND how it's not slowing do to the known mass it does contain is evidence. To accelerate any mass, which appears to be happening, one must add energy. An observable "Einstien Ring" is other evidence of DM. These are observable facts that support the notion of DE & DM, there are others.

That's what Theists bring to the table supporting their beliefs in God, faith. No evidence but feelings based on faith, that don't get it with science and discovering the truth.

So I have two questions BigPapaSmurf,,,
What are your reason/s to support your beliefs that it could be an "unknown property of space time"? Do you have anything that you can articulate here supporting your feeling or is it unreasonably based from not being based on evidence but based on faith without out evidence while ignoring existing data?

In our journey to find out what the truth is about our reality and the universe we live in it is better to do so with our eyes open and not closed. We also should not have blinders on so we can ignore what we don't like as theists wear. We must use evidence to base our scientific theories on. We should never use 'faith', which is defined as a belief that is not based on proof with evidence but used when there is an absence of evidence.


Edited: last paragraph for better clarity.


Galaxies 14bly away are "moving" away from us at 1+c, There is no evidence that the mass is accelerating, the observations show that spacetime is expanding between glactic clusters, Thats all we know about DE.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2012 :  05:48:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You say I need evidence? I'm the one saying there is no evidence that DE is "energy"*...no standard has been met for that to my knowledge.

*I consider energy to be something that is interchangable with mass, if this new stuff =/= m, then it should not be called energy.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Tim Thompson
New Member

USA
36 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2012 :  11:40:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Tim Thompson's Homepage Send Tim Thompson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Long story short, a vast gas bubble surrounds our galaxy, doubles the mass of the galaxy...


Actually, according to the MSNBC article: "Astronomers have discovered a cloud of gas engulfing our Milky Way galaxy that weighs as much as all the stars inside our galactic home." That is not "doubles the mass", but it is a reasonable approximation of "doubles the baryonic mass".

Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Waiting for TT to come in and give his two cents. So Tim does this help account for the speed of the stars in the outer galaxy?


Do you mean stars in the Galactic halo? Or stars in the outer disk, as in a flat rotation curve? In any case, that's not a very reliable indicator of much. As I have mentioned in the past, relying on press releases and new pages is an unreliable way to rely on anything. Always go to the source, and in this case the source is here:

A Huge Reservoir of Ionized Gas Around the Milky Way: Accounting for the Missing Mass?
A. Gupta, et al., Astrophysical Journal Letters 756(1): L8, September 2012

Abstract:
Most of the baryons from galaxies have been "missing" and several studies have attempted to map the circumgalactic medium (CGM) of galaxies in their quest. We report on X-ray observations made with the Chandra X-ray Observatory probing the warm-hot phase of the CGM of our Milky Way at about 106 K. We detect OVII and OVIII absorption lines at z=0 in extragalactic sight lines and measure accurate column densities using both K-alpha and K-beta lines of OVII. We then combine these measurements with the emission measure of the Galactic halo from literature to derive the density and the path length of the CGM. We show that the warm-hot phase of the CGM is massive, extending over a large region around the Milky Way, with a radius over 100 kpc. The mass content of this phase is over ten billion solar masses, many times more than in cooler gas phases and comparable to the total baryonic mass in the disk of the Galaxy. The missing mass of the Galaxy appears to be in this warm-hot gas phase.

And the first paragraph from the introduction (preprint page 2):

We have known for a while that the baryonic mass of galaxies, including that of our own Milky Way, falls short of what is expected for their total mass ((Sommer-Larsen 2006; Bregman 2007) and references therein). This "missing" mass is either ejected from galaxies into the intergalactic medium (IGM) or still resides in the circumgalactic medium (CGM). Our galaxy is a member of the Local Group of galaxies, and it is possible that the matter elected from the Galaxy resides in the Local Group. Either in the CGM or in the Local Group Medium (LGM), the baryonic mass is expected in a warm-hot gas phase at temperatures between 105 and 107 K. This is probably the reason why earlier studies probing only cooler gas could not account for it. The warm component of this phase at 105 - 106 K has been observed in the UV traced by absorption lines of ionized metals, in particular OVI (Nicastro et al. 2003; Sembach et al. 2003). Recent observations with the Hubble Space Telescope (HST) have shown that the CGM around star-forming galaxies is large (150 kpc) and the mass of the warm phase traced by OVI exceeds that of the gas in the galaxies themselves (Tumlinson et al. 2011; Tripp et al. 2011). Using other absorption lines, e.g. SiIV and CIV in the UV (Lehner & Howk 2011) found that there is a large reservoir of warm ionized gas around our Galaxy as well.

And the last part of the next paragraph (preprint page 2)

The hotter phase of the warm-hot gas, at temperatures 106 - 107 K can be probed by even more highly ionized metals ... Here we use both absorption and emission observations to derive the physical properties of the warm-hot plasma. We show that the X-ray observations probe million degree gas, with low density, extending over 100 kpc and having mass over ten billion solar masses. This is several times more than previously found in the CGM of the Milky Way. Alternatively, the warm-hot gas we probe is from the extended LG medium.

Now that we are properly armed with what the authors actually say in their research, we can better assess what's going on. First, note that twice, the mass of the gas discovered is "over ten billion solar masses" (that's 1010). The dynamic mass of the Galaxy is known to be on the order of one trillion solar masses (that's 1012). So the mass of gas reportedly discovered here is on the order of 1% of the known total dynamic mass of the Galaxy. Astrophysicists & astronomers interested specifically in the Galactic halo can get excited about 1%, but I have a hard time getting all worked up about it. An extra 1% of hot baryonic gas hardly does any serious damage to the idea of non-baryonic dark matter.

More precisely, farther along in the paper we find that the authors derive a path length, L= 239 +/- 100 kpc. If L = 139 kpc, then the total mass is either > 6.1 x 1010 solar masses (metalicity = 0.3 solar), or for solar metalicity it's 1.2 x 1010 solar masses, compared to 2 x 109 found by (Tumlinson et al. 2011) for OVI systems. This gas mass is comparable to the baryonic mass of the Galactic disk, ~6 x 1010 solar masses (Sommer-Larsen 2006). We also find that the baryonic fraction of this warm hot gas varies from 0.09 - 0.23 depending on the virial mass of the Galaxy, 1012 - 2.5 x 1012 solar masses (Anderson & Bregman 2010, and references therein), bracketing the cosmological value of 0.17. This is a reference to the concordance cosmology, whereby baryonic matter is 17% of the total matter mass, the remaining 83% being non-baryonic dark matter. We note that according to the published paper, the results reported here are consistent with the concordance cosmology. So, long story short, this report changes & challenges nothing on a cosmological scale. This should come as no surprise, since all of the mass reported in this study was already known to exist, and was already accounted for in cosmology, by virtue of cosmological parameters derived from the cosmic microwave background. It simply had not been directly locally observed yet. Now it has, but that should & does change nothing.

We should also note that the authors assume that the absorbing/emitting halo plasma has a uniform density. If this is not the case, and the plasma has a beta-profile (for instance), with density increasing near the center and falling off with radius (known to be the case for several galaxies; see Mathur, et al., 2008 and references therein), then the equivalent widths will be weighted by the denser gas, and for a given column density the true average density will be smaller and the path length larger, such that the gas observed is at least in part the LGM not the CGM. That could mean we are seeing gas not associated with the Milky Way halo at all. The spectral resolution of current X-ray gratings makes it difficult to resolve the absorption lines into Galactic and local group components.


Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

... I feel that DE could very well be an unknown property of space time that accounts for 0% of the mass. DM doesnt bother me nearly as much.


Maybe, maybe not. If you look at Einstein's equations in general relativity, and put dark energy in as a cosmological constant, or put it in the stress-energy tensor as a scalar field, then it is definitely energy, almost certainly from a quantum field in the vacuum. You could transform dark energy into pure geometry by making it part of the curvature tensor, which would make it a spacetime property. At the moment, we really don't know what to make of dark energy. But the bulk of evidence has increasingly pointed towards consistency with a cosmological constant, which makes it real energy of a quantum field (e.g., Wood-Vasey, et al., 2007; Davis, et al., 2007 and citations thereto).

Minor edit added to fix bothersome typo.

The point of philosophy is to start with something so simple as not to seem worth stating, and to end with something so paradoxical that no one will believe it. -- Bertrand Russell
Edited by - Tim Thompson on 10/01/2012 13:39:52
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2012 :  11:48:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Tim, nice write-up.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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