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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2013 : 15:47:20 [Permalink]
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| Here is a video of one phone call on "The Atheist Experience" that discusses the failed logical argument that Bill S just attempted back in this thread and why theist are currently using or have adapted it. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2013 : 16:17:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by the_ignored
Problem: Because of this "sin nature" that he supposedly inherited, we have no choice but to sin. It's not something that we can help. |
This is not what the Bible teaches. |
Bullshit it doesn't. See the verses I post later on in this reply.
It teaches we are responsible for our sin, we choose to do it.
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You're the first xian I've ever met who does not believe in the "original sin" concept of your faith.
Originally posted by the_ignored
Think about it...your god allowed this "disease" to spread throughout the entire human race, then, a few thousand years later he introduced the so-called "cure" in one tiny part of the world and he did not announce it to the world at the time as he could have with his angels, but instead let the people of the North america and Australia, etc rot until the xian missionaries came.
How is this the action of a being who wants all humanity to be saved? |
Because you deserve death and punishment in hell for your sin. |
Then why did he send missionaries at all??
| The fact that God saves some is a wonder in itself. It seems to me you are angry because God won't do things the way you would? |
It seems to me that you've ditched common sense in favour of taking up a case of abused spousal syndrome.
So even for thinking just ONE wrong thing means that we deserve to burn in hell for-fucking-ever??
Convinced quoting me:
Why did he not just kill or sterilize adam and eve so that they couldn't pass this "sin nature" on to the rest of humanity, then start over with a new man and woman? |
Well let God know you would do things differently. |
Evasion noted.
Me quoting Convinced
Premise: those who sin deserve death.
Premise: Original sin makes everyone alive sinful
Conclusion: everyone alive deserves death.
I disagree with the second premise. |
Why? How is that not the case that original sin makes everyone sinful? |
I don't think the Bible teaches this. |
You're the first one I've met who doesn't.
Explain these bible verses then:
Romans 5:12-15
1 Timothy 2:11-15 (*who says that misogyny is not a feature of xianity by the way*)
1 Corinthians 15:21-25
But it does not matter in the end because all have willfully sinned. So even if our sin nature condemns us to hell it is irrelevant because we have all committed sin that deserves death regardless of our sin nature.
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It is indeed relevant, as it was the alleged actions of our ancestor, not us who brought this "sin nature" into us, yet instead of stopping it right then and there, "god" allowed it to spread and then, thousands of years later, introduced the so-called "cure" into one small, remote part of the world and kept it relatively quiet instead of having his angels announce it to all the world then and there. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2013 : 18:53:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Convinced
This is not what the bible teaches. I should be clear again that works do save you but your works cannot save you because they are sinful and corrupt. The works of Jesus save you if you repent and believe.
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What a completely puzzling idea. So if you and DaveW both perform the same works, say regularly donating blood which anonymously benefitted 100s of other people throughout your lifetimes, for you it would be considered part of your good works since you have repented and believe in Jesus, but for DaveW the same works would be considered sinful and corrupt?
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Sort of. My works (that are sinful) are attributed to Jesus, DaveW's works (that are sinful) are attributed to DaveW. Jesus was punished for my sins and DaveW unless he repents and believes will be punished for his sin. The good works that I will have on judgement day are all of Jesus works but God will see them as if I did them, so they are actually my works.
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In my example Dave's good work was for purely altruistic reasons to benefit others anonymously with no expectation of reward. Your motivations on the other hand definitely appear to come with at least the hope of reward. Not quite as selfless as Dave's. A reasonable god should be more willing to reward such selfless behavior. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2013 : 04:43:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
In my example Dave's good work was for purely altruistic reasons to benefit others anonymously with no expectation of reward. Your motivations on the other hand definitely appear to come with at least the hope of reward. Not quite as selfless as Dave's. A reasonable god should be more willing to reward such selfless behavior.
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No, no, no, Mo'.
Not for the God in the Bible. That's not what the Bible teaches. It's very clear for those who know. It is not through good works that people can enter heaven but through repenting and accepting Jesus as your savior. Pay attention.
| Exodus 34:7 "maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation." |
Except for original sin, ad infinitum. There are so many details, it's no wonder people can't keep this shit straight.
If I understand Convinced beliefs and coming from being raised as a Catholic, it is because of mankind's inherent decrepit sinful nature that there is no amount of good works that can get anyone into heaven. Oh yeah, Catholics are taught (I was) those that suffer on earth during their life are deserving of the suffering they receive and it is just. There is no amount of good deeds anyone can do, nothing one can do that can make up for our sins. God having made us this way and because God makes the rules and because God loves us so much He sent down (not up) His own son to earth to redeem us, so we can torture the shit out of Jesus and kill him. Just so we can have a pathway into heaven if we choose to take it. I'm rephrasing it a bit but I believe the context is for the most part the same. See how much God loves us? Other wise we truly would be in a pickle. People just have to accept Jesus, it's a gift from God. It is our only way for salvation (and repent!).
How can God make it any easier than that? People should be flocking to this gift and just under 2 billion people today do right now, that's just Catholics. God's plan is working but if you consider the population of the planet just passed 7 billion, that's so good. I would think an all powerful God, who can void the laws of nature when He wished could do better that this but I got a feeble brain, what can I possibly know?
To be in this thread we all had to let go of evidence other wise it would be dead from the start. No discussion, nothing. Now at this late date your are trying to be reasonable and logical moakley? Oh no you don't. That is not allowed in this thread and it's not allowed when discussing religious beliefs ever. What are you thinking? After leaving evidence behind if you can now let reason and logic go also in this thread it would all make perfect sense. The reason atheist have such a hard time with this is they use logic and reason and require evidence (hopefully) with everything they process and accept. Keep that in mind when discussing aspects of reality with any theist, they do not require any evidence but faith alone for their beliefs and do not hold logic and reason in the same high regard as Atheist should do. We in effect have entered the "Twilight Zone" here in this thread. Where theist are at home.
Religions that are no longer practiced or widely believed are elevated to myths today. Which is a big step up in my book. Religions that are still practiced are not myths but believed true by those that practice them today. That is believers own false reality (imo). They believe based on faith, which they believe is true because they can feel it in their chest, deep inside, not in their heads. Like the ancient believers of God's like Zeus, Athena, etc. those that were worshiped then but not now are all filed under Greek Mythology. Good thing those believers are all dead now or we would be hearing objections from them now about how what they believe is not a myth but true. All mythologies were once spiritual beliefs believed by living people during an earlier time. Can we all not see that if we throw out "Logic", "Reason" and the requirement for "EVIDENCE" this can all really make perfect sense? I can. Hell yes, 1000 years ago not knowing about electricity like I do now, I could believe Thor created thunder with his hammer. If I lived in the right place on the planet 1000 years ago. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2013 : 08:08:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Can you respond to my entire quote? I explained this in my last post but you only chose to quote this small part of it. |
No, I'm asking a question which you seem to be avoiding: does the Bible say anything about the morality of failing to act? If I see someone in trouble and I'm sure I could help, does the Bible say that I am free to just keep on walking? |
Yes it does. In James 4:17 (NIV) it says in context:
13 Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogant schemes. All such boasting is evil. 17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2013 : 08:17:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
That's what every xian denomination out there does. Thing is: They're not really very consistent for being "spiritually discerned", are they?
Rapture, no rapture, pre-trib rapture |
Yes all these can be concluded from scripture but they are not salvation issues. You can believe any one of them and still be saved.
Absolutely cannot be found in scripture. Can you show me where this concept is in the bible?
| free will vs. predistination |
again a non salvation issue.
Just because we christians have differing beliefs does not mean that the gospel message is true or not. And from my perspective we christians should only divide on the gospel message.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2013 : 08:59:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Me quoting Convinced
Premise: those who sin deserve death.
Premise: Original sin makes everyone alive sinful
Conclusion: everyone alive deserves death.
I disagree with the second premise. |
Why? How is that not the case that original sin makes everyone sinful? |
I don't think the Bible teaches this. |
You're the first one I've met who doesn't.
Explain these bible verses then:
Romans 5:12-15
1 Timothy 2:11-15 (*who says that misogyny is not a feature of xianity by the way*)
1 Corinthians 15:21-25 |
I think Romans 5:18 nails it on the head.
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
Also, Without God helping us so to speak:
We cannot submit to Gods law (Rom. 8:5-8)
We cannot understand the things of God (1 Cor. 2:14)
We cannot seek God (Rom. 3:11)
We cannot believe in God (John 6:44)
We cannot do anything good at all (Rom. 3:10-18)
We are captive to sin (John 8:34)
We cannot repent (2 Tim. 2:25-26)
We cannot do good (Isa. 64:6)
I do believe in our sin nature passed down from Adam and that without God we cannot do anything God expects. Where I think I differ from you is on what God thinks of our sin. I wanted to get across that God holds us responsible for it. You seem to think that God does not because we will sin inevitably because of our sin nature. Is this correct?
I did not mean to indicate that I thought we are born innocent. We sin because we are sinners not that we are sinners because we sin. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2013 : 09:03:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Convinced
This is not what the bible teaches. I should be clear again that works do save you but your works cannot save you because they are sinful and corrupt. The works of Jesus save you if you repent and believe.
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What a completely puzzling idea. So if you and DaveW both perform the same works, say regularly donating blood which anonymously benefitted 100s of other people throughout your lifetimes, for you it would be considered part of your good works since you have repented and believe in Jesus, but for DaveW the same works would be considered sinful and corrupt?
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Sort of. My works (that are sinful) are attributed to Jesus, DaveW's works (that are sinful) are attributed to DaveW. Jesus was punished for my sins and DaveW unless he repents and believes will be punished for his sin. The good works that I will have on judgement day are all of Jesus works but God will see them as if I did them, so they are actually my works.
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In my example Dave's good work was for purely altruistic reasons to benefit others anonymously with no expectation of reward. Your motivations on the other hand definitely appear to come with at least the hope of reward. Not quite as selfless as Dave's. A reasonable god should be more willing to reward such selfless behavior.
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What do you base this belief on? Why is altruism better than selfishness?
My reward is secure and already achieved by Jesus. I do good out of gratitude of what Jesus did for me. But it is also not correct to say I did not do any "good deeds" before I was a christian. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2013 : 09:44:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I do believe in our sin nature passed down from Adam... |
Where did this "sin nature" come from? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2013 : 13:32:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
What do you base this belief on? Why is altruism better than selfishness?
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Under the revealing light of simple consequentialism there should be no difference. The same good work by two different individuals provides essentially the same benefit to others. Only under the harsh judgement of biblical teachings is there a difference in the cost calculation of performing a good work. That difference in cost calculation provides insight to a difference in motivation; Dave's being selfless and your's decidedly more selfish. Biblical teaching creates a difference where none should exist based on measurable benefit.
My reward is secure and already achieved by Jesus. I do good out of gratitude of what Jesus did for me.
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Of course because your hoped for reward is heaven. Something I would not wish on anyone.
But it is also not correct to say I did not do any "good deeds" before I was a christian.
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Then it is good that no one has said that. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2013 : 13:55:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by the_ignored
Me quoting Convinced
Premise: those who sin deserve death.
Premise: Original sin makes everyone alive sinful
Conclusion: everyone alive deserves death.
I disagree with the second premise. |
Why? How is that not the case that original sin makes everyone sinful? |
I don't think the Bible teaches this. |
You're the first one I've met who doesn't.
Explain these bible verses then:
Romans 5:12-15
1 Timothy 2:11-15 (*who says that misogyny is not a feature of xianity by the way*)
1 Corinthians 15:21-25 |
I think Romans 5:18 nails it on the head.
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
Also, Without God helping us so to speak:
We cannot submit to Gods law (Rom. 8:5-8)
We cannot understand the things of God (1 Cor. 2:14)
We cannot seek God (Rom. 3:11)
We cannot believe in God (John 6:44)
We cannot do anything good at all (Rom. 3:10-18)
We are captive to sin (John 8:34)
We cannot repent (2 Tim. 2:25-26)
We cannot do good (Isa. 64:6)
I do believe in our sin nature passed down from Adam... |
That is original sin. Were you not just denying it earlier??
| ...and that without God we cannot do anything God expects. Where I think I differ from you is on what God thinks of our sin. I wanted to get across that God holds us responsible for it. |
Why, if it's an inherited condition...one that he could have easily prevented by killing or sterilizing "adam and eve" and starting over with humanity.
| You seem to think that God does not because we will sin inevitably because of our sin nature. Is this correct? |
Half. I know that the xian god "holds us accountable" but that he really shouldn't because we can't help it, because of our "sin nature" that he allowed to be passed on.
I did not mean to indicate that I thought we are born innocent. We sin because we are sinners not that we are sinners because we sin.
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That's stupid...what makes us "sinners" in the first place then? The actions of our presumed ancestors. Dumb idea.
We cannot do anything good at all (Rom. 3:10-18)
How does a xian define "good"? According to you people, killing babies is good, so long as god orders it. Yet the rest of the time that same action is the vilest evil. Care to explain?
What about secular charities? Don't they do "good" or does giving aid to disaster victims and whatnot not fucking count unless it's god telling you to do it? |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2013 : 13:59:38 [Permalink]
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by Convinced
But it is also not correct to say I did not do any "good deeds" before I was a christian. |
Hold on a minute here. Didn't you say earlier that We cannot do anything good at all (Rom. 3:10-18) and We cannot do good (Isa. 64:6)
?? |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 07/05/2013 14:00:55 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2013 : 18:50:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Of course because your hoped for reward is heaven. Something I would not wish on anyone. |
That can't be repeated enough, especially when the idea of heaven one is talking about is the one where everything is perfect and imperfection is intolerable.
An eternity of boring.
[Shudder]
I don't know what Convinced's picture of heaven looks like, but the "perfect" one would suck as much as hell. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2013 : 21:37:55 [Permalink]
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Being in Heaven is exactly like being in North Korea except worse. What makes North Korea better than heaven you might ask? Those in North Korea will eventually die. If heaven could exist it would be one Hell of a place.
According to Jesus' own words, his teachings spoken during his "Sermon on the Mount" Convinced and every other Christian with their cocky ass opinions ain't getting nowhere near heaven. No Christian is who haven't been following their God's barbaric laws in the old testament too. I ain't just the ten commandments you know.Matthew 5:17-20
17 "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." |
To think that they can ignore these laws just because man's morality has evolved and surpassed the morals attributed to God as he was created is not relevant. If God was created with flaws to bad, deal with it or admit it's all bullshit. There are to many laws that no one obeys today for anyone today to be going to Heaven if it could exist. Getting together and picking and choosing which one's to obey and not obey shouldn't work today just like it wouldn't have worked 2100 years ago. Even the most strictest Jews can't bring themselves to follow some of the obviously immoral ones. That should show how stupid they are. There are 613 and as Jesus said "Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven". No doubt the dancing will continue. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2013 : 01:58:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I don't like the work accept in this context I prefer putting your faith or trust in Jesus as the son of God. Demons for example accept Jesus as the son of God.
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I also accept Jesus as the son of God.
In the same way that I accept that Tor is the son of Oden, or that Icarus was the son of Daedalus. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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God-given racism
