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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
 Posted - 07/09/2013 : 06:13:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I do believe in our sin nature passed down from Adam... |
Where did this "sin nature" come from?
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Romans 5:12 says it came through Adam when he sinned. Adam and Eve were made in the image of God (Gen 1:26-27), Adam and Eve's offspring were made in the image of Adam and Eve (Gen 5:3) with their sin nature. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 06:15:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Convinced
What do you base this belief on? Why is altruism better than selfishness?
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Under the revealing light of simple consequentialism there should be no difference. The same good work by two different individuals provides essentially the same benefit to others. Only under the harsh judgement of biblical teachings is there a difference in the cost calculation of performing a good work. That difference in cost calculation provides insight to a difference in motivation; Dave's being selfless and your's decidedly more selfish. Biblical teaching creates a difference where none should exist based on measurable benefit. |
Why is selflessness better than selfishness?
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 06:42:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
That is original sin. Were you not just denying it earlier?? |
No. What I was refuting (rather poorly) was the claim that since we have a sin nature we are not responsible for our sin. We can still know right from wrong and act accordingly even with our sin nature.
| Why, if it's an inherited condition...one that he could have easily prevented by killing or sterilizing "adam and eve" and starting over with humanity. |
As far as I can tell the Bible does not say.
| You seem to think that God does not because we will sin inevitably because of our sin nature. Is this correct? |
Half. I know that the xian god "holds us accountable" but that he really shouldn't because we can't help it, because of our "sin nature" that he allowed to be passed on. |
What do you base this judgement on? You may disagree but the Bible says we are responsible.
We cannot do anything good at all (Rom. 3:10-18)
How does a xian define "good"? According to you people, killing babies is good, so long as god orders it. Yet the rest of the time that same action is the vilest evil. Care to explain? |
I would say whatever god decrees is good is good. There are many apologetics on this but I think a relevant point is you are making a moral judgment of gods actions with no standard to do so. Why should I believe you that killing babies in 1 Sam 15 is just as wrong as murdering a baby today?
| What about secular charities? Don't they do "good" or does giving aid to disaster victims and whatnot not fucking count unless it's god telling you to do it? |
Whether a christian gives to this charity or a non believer the act is still not good enough for god. He expects perfection in thought, word and deed. A christian still sins and their good works are not good enough to please god either. That is why once saved the good works and righteousness of Jesus is given to us and our works were given to Jesus and he was punished for them. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 06:46:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
by Convinced
But it is also not correct to say I did not do any "good deeds" before I was a christian. |
Hold on a minute here. Didn't you say earlier that We cannot do anything good at all (Rom. 3:10-18) and We cannot do good (Isa. 64:6)
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That is what the quotation marks are for. I have done good deeds according to you or society and even god, but they are still sinful. Giving the hungry food is a good deed, it is just that we do that good deed with sin. We are commanded to do good, but my good deeds and your good deeds are just as sinful. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 07:02:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Romans 5:12 says it came through Adam when he sinned. |
So Adam didn't have a "sin nature" before he sinned? So one can sin without a "sin nature." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 09:26:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Being in Heaven is exactly like being in North Korea except worse. What makes North Korea better than heaven you might ask? Those in North Korea will eventually die. If heaven could exist it would be one Hell of a place.
According to Jesus' own words, his teachings spoken during his "Sermon on the Mount" Convinced and every other Christian with their cocky ass opinions ain't getting nowhere near heaven. No Christian is who haven't been following their God's barbaric laws in the old testament too. I ain't just the ten commandments you know.Matthew 5:17-20
17 "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." |
To think that they can ignore these laws just because man's morality has evolved and surpassed the morals attributed to God as he was created is not relevant. If God was created with flaws to bad, deal with it or admit it's all bullshit. There are to many laws that no one obeys today for anyone today to be going to Heaven if it could exist. Getting together and picking and choosing which one's to obey and not obey shouldn't work today just like it wouldn't have worked 2100 years ago. Even the most strictest Jews can't bring themselves to follow some of the obviously immoral ones. That should show how stupid they are. There are 613 and as Jesus said "Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven". No doubt the dancing will continue.
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The way I understand this is that Jesus fulfilled the law for us.. Hebrews 7-9 explains the old and new covenants and how the coming of Jesus ended the old and started the new covenant. I understand that He is saying here you need to be perfect in obeying the law which we know we cannot do, but He did for us. Ro 6:14, Ro 7:6 and Gal 5:18 say we are not under the law. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 09:28:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Romans 5:12 says it came through Adam when he sinned. |
So Adam didn't have a "sin nature" before he sinned? So one can sin without a "sin nature."
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The bible would indicate yes. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 10:17:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Convinced
What do you base this belief on? Why is altruism better than selfishness?
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Under the revealing light of simple consequentialism there should be no difference. The same good work by two different individuals provides essentially the same benefit to others. Only under the harsh judgement of biblical teachings is there a difference in the cost calculation of performing a good work. That difference in cost calculation provides insight to a difference in motivation; Dave's being selfless and your's decidedly more selfish. Biblical teaching creates a difference where none should exist based on measurable benefit. |
Why is selflessness better than selfishness?
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Same question. What in my answer needs clarification? |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 10:26:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Romans 5:12 says it came through Adam when he sinned. |
So Adam didn't have a "sin nature" before he sinned? So one can sin without a "sin nature." |
The bible would indicate yes. |
So what's the big deal about having a "sin nature" if one can sin without it? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 10:30:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I would say whatever god decrees is good is good. |
So if god decreed tomorrow that eating human infants was necessary to attain salvation, you'd dig right in? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 12:34:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Convinced
What do you base this belief on? Why is altruism better than selfishness?
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Under the revealing light of simple consequentialism there should be no difference. The same good work by two different individuals provides essentially the same benefit to others. Only under the harsh judgement of biblical teachings is there a difference in the cost calculation of performing a good work. That difference in cost calculation provides insight to a difference in motivation; Dave's being selfless and your's decidedly more selfish. Biblical teaching creates a difference where none should exist based on measurable benefit. |
Why is selflessness better than selfishness?
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Same question. What in my answer needs clarification?
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Do you think being selfish or selfless is a better way to live and why or are they the same?
Do you think that christians do good works only because of the promise of a reward? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 12:39:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Romans 5:12 says it came through Adam when he sinned. |
So Adam didn't have a "sin nature" before he sinned? So one can sin without a "sin nature." |
The bible would indicate yes. |
So what's the big deal about having a "sin nature" if one can sin without it?
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It is a doctrine the bible teaches. You don't have to believe it to be saved. You can know you have sinned without believing you have a sin nature. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 12:42:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I would say whatever god decrees is good is good. |
So if god decreed tomorrow that eating human infants was necessary to attain salvation, you'd dig right in?
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I don't think I would but why do you think it is wrong to eat babies? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 13:45:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I would say whatever god decrees is good is good. |
So if god decreed tomorrow that eating human infants was necessary to attain salvation, you'd dig right in? |
I don't think I would... |
So you'd choose sin and damnation if god said that eating babies is good and necessary? Who are you to rebel against god?| ...but why do you think it is wrong to eat babies? |
I explained the basis of my morality already: empathy and the Ethic of Reciprocity. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2013 : 09:17:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I would say whatever god decrees is good is good. |
So if god decreed tomorrow that eating human infants was necessary to attain salvation, you'd dig right in? |
I don't think I would... |
So you'd choose sin and damnation if god said that eating babies is good and necessary? Who are you to rebel against god? |
God in the Bible has already said how to be saved. So adding the requirement now to eat babies would not conform to Gods word and so I would reject that.
| ...but why do you think it is wrong to eat babies? |
I explained the basis of my morality already: empathy and the Ethic of Reciprocity.
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Ok, so then you have no authority to make a judgment about my eating of babies. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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God-given racism
