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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
 Posted - 09/17/2013 : 14:00:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Dave, I'm not so sure that teaching people not to rape is a solution. And before I continue, what I'm really addressing here is a specific kind of rape that I think is the most common - casual date rape. For one thing, I think most guys are going to go with what is the norm among their peers, so I think it makes more sense to try to influence men to confront their peers about this sort of thing rather than parents to confront their kids. |
You're right, partly. Teaching people is the solution, not parents teaching their kids. I think more campaigns like this one are a good start, especially if ads are geared towards getting people to stop their friends' more egregious public aggressiveness.| Hell, I once had a guy friend (he isn't my friend anymore incidentally) tell me that he thought teenage girls should be told to avoid fooling around with a teenage boy alone because many boys can't control themselves once they get to "that point." |
Ugh. The "men are impulsive animals" nonsense is a major motivator for frikking burqas.| See, I hate this subject. There is no solution. I'm telling you, no solution. As long as there are kinds of rape that are easy to get away with, there will be those kinds of rapes. A lot of them. |
I don't share your negativity. Used to be that lynchings and child labor were easy to get away with. Times change. Perhaps slowly but things have been progressing.
On that note, a recently fired MRA and bigot ironically named Pax Dickinson, met with blogger Anil Dash and actually whined:But you guys are winning! The progressives and feminists are winning in everything, in politics and media! Of course, he's overstating the case because persecution complex, but it's not so long ago that the shit he Tweeted that got him canned wouldn't even have generated a reprimand. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2013 : 05:54:58 [Permalink]
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Another example of rape culture: Matthew Barnett raped a girl, the act was caught on video, he confessed to the cops, the charges he faced were dropped and he's now a college student. His victim and her family were threatened and harassed both online and face-to-face, her older brother got booed at a wrestling match, her mother was fired from her veterinary job for no good reason, so the family moved out of town to escape the abuse, and while trying to sell their old home, it burned to the ground. The victim has tried to commit suicide twice due to her depression, while her rapist brags on Facebook about how all women want him and at least a few people think he deserves an apology.
So everything was done "correctly": 911 was called, the hospital administered a rape kit, there was video and physical evidence, the cops got a taped confession, and the only substantial consequences were to the victim and her family. The "system" is seriously broken, and there's little reason for victims to trust that in their case, it'll work. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1489 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2013 : 09:43:34 [Permalink]
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| Wow, Dave. {shudder} |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2013 : 11:54:48 [Permalink]
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| Makes you wonder is there not one socially moral person in any position there willing to do their job. Obviously not! When this happens it just boggles the mind. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 10/16/2013 : 13:07:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Makes you wonder is there not one socially moral person in any position there willing to do their job. Obviously not! When this happens it just boggles the mind. |
At first it seemed the Sheriff was the only "good" townsperson in that story,| Sheriff Darren White felt confident the office had put together a case that would absolutely result in prosecutions. |
and| For his part, White, the sheriff, maintains no doubt a crime was committed that night. |
But after finishing the article, I no longer feel that way:Many in town are happy to put the episode behind them, including White, who makes little attempt to mask his opinion of Coleman, a woman he says clearly has issues.
We did our job, he says. We did it well. Its unfortunate that they are unhappy.
I guess theyre just going to have to get over it. |
Of course she has issues! Her husband died in a car crash, her daughter was raped, and she has seen the rapist go free and her family has been vilified! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2013 : 06:52:21 [Permalink]
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More revelations about Michael Shermer and DJ Grothe. Carrie Poppy and Brian Thompson, who both used to work for DJ, recently published the following statements.
Carrie Poppy:D.J. Grothe told me and others, repeatedly, that he (DJ) had personally witnessed Michael Shermer groping a female TAM speaker's breast, unprovoked and against her protestations. She has confirmed this, since. D.J. continued to invite that speaker to TAM in subsequent years. D.J. has stated this much over and over. So please, do feel free to ask him yourselves. Brian Thompson:D.J. told me the same thing. He's told several people he witnessed Michael Shermer groping a female TAM speaker, though this didn't occur at TAM. The woman in question has chosen not to speak publicly about it, presumably so it won't become the focus of her professional life. I don't blame her. And I have every reason to believe that people in charge of both CFI and Dragon*Con's Skeptrack are aware of the same incident. I didn't see it, so I don't know if it happened. D.J. certainly believes it happened, though, and so do others who have chosen to invite Shermer to events anyway. You'd have to ask them why they continue to do so. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2013 : 15:15:17 [Permalink]
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| The victim of Michael Shermer's groping told Barbara Drescher about it a couple years ago. It's apparently no big secret, but Drescher seems to think that Carrie Poppy mentioned it only because of some alleged personal vendetta against someone unnamed. Go figure she doesn't supply any actual evidence for that claim, just an argument from bad consequences. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2013 : 07:52:34 [Permalink]
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Barbara Drescher commented on DJ's Facebook thread (that seems to have been vanished):It's a pretty sad world we live in when nobody is allowed to comment at all about someone's appearance without being accused of bigotry And:I want the 1980s back. Yes, it was a bit oppressive, but people laughed at such over-the-top PCness. Today, we aren't even allowed to be direct or honest without being accused of bigotry and "privilege". Frankly, I don't think most people would recognize real bigotry if it bit them in the ass. I bet the nostalgia was better back then, too. Good grief. The problem obviously isn't that DJ made leaps of illogical judgment on someone based solely on appearance and his own biases and then embarrassed himself (and perhaps the JREF) by posting his thoughts online for all to see, the real problem is that criticizing DJ for doing so is "over-the-top PCness," and the solution is to let society become "a bit" more oppressive and remain silent when people say stupid, bigoted crap.
Really, Prof. Drescher: how does that make for a better world?
By the way, it's clear that DJ is "allowed" to say whatever the fuck he wants to say. He suffers no punishments from doing so, obviously. James Randi has made it clear that DJ is "El Presidente for Life" of the JREF, so he can't suffer job loss. His Facebook and Twitter accounts are in good standing. The (obviously) unintentional irony of this hyperbole while whining about "over-the-top" anything was good for a laugh at the professor's expense.
Oh, allegedly, DJ is now claiming that he meant his comments to be "celetbrating" trans* people. Commenter blulanturn has the perfect response to that:Deeje: Welcome to the party, everyone! Im doing this all for you!
Partygoers: The floors and walls are caked 100% in human shit, the Pillsbury spinach puffs are all half frozen, and your bartender kicked me in the back when I asked for a glass of champagne.
Deeje: UGH, YOU GUYS IM CELEBRATING YOU, JEEZE. Speaking of unintentional irony, the next contestant is Miranda Celeste Hale:Hey outrage brigade, I have an idea for you: if you dont like something that DJ says, or that Dawkins says, etc., then dont follow them on Twitter/Facebook. Ignore them. No one forces you to read what they say or to be outraged/offended/whatever by non-offensive things. Stop being obsessed with people you dont like. Seriously, its easy. Find the unfollow button. Click it. Done. Tell that to Barbara Drescher. And yourself. These people have got to be the least self-reflective "skeptics" I've ever encountered.
In other news, Jason Thibeault has a good post up about Shermer's assault.This is not about drama. It's not about making individuals pariahs. It's about making sure that everyone is aware that certain behaviours are terrible and that we won't brook them in our communities if we're going to have any kind of communities worth having. Some people think the communities are better off without the people agitating for better morals and less molestation. I can't help but think that if they win, we all lose. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2013 : 08:52:23 [Permalink]
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Sigh...
I don't think what DJ said was so bad. He opined that the person might have been protesting. He hoped so. I don't see in there where he was dissing transgenders for being transgender or saying that they must meet his standards of appearance. While I don't always agree with DJ, I think this is looking for a nit to pick.
No hyperbole: I just saw the worst-passing transsexual I've ever seen in the lounge here. It was so disruptive that I am forced to believe it was an intentional way to protest against rigid gender binaries. Or so I'd like to think. - DJ
Just beware, transsexuals: you must meet DJ Grothes high standards before appearing in public. You will be judged. - Myers
And off we go!
Of course, now it's all blown up thanks to Myers, (who created a starawman out of what DJ said, or did everyone miss that? I suppose it's sarcasm, but it's also a rhetorical trick.) Both sides can't seem to live without attacking each other with over the top accusations and sarcasm I guess. I have been disappointed by a lot of comments that I've seen this week coming from both directions. (I should be used to that kind of disappointment by now.) And it sucks.
Why not just take DJ at his word? Or at least give him the benefit of the doubt? He is a part of the LBTG rights movement after all.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2013 : 11:39:06 [Permalink]
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DJ:No hyperbole: I just saw the worst-passing transsexual... Assumed without evidence that the person was trans*. Assumed without evidence that the person was trying to pass as other than their biological gender.It was so disruptive... How someone looks isn't disruptive, how people react to how someone looks is what's disruptive....that I am forced to believe it was an intentional way to protest against rigid gender binaries. Or so I'd like to think. Because the alternative is that the person just looks that way, without intending to make a statement, and that'd be somehow disappointing to DJ Grothe.I know it would have been especially insulting to take a picture... If the person was intending to make a public protest, how could it have possibly been an insult to take a picture? Instead, DJ was being cautious here in an "I'd better not ask about her pregnancy in case she's just fat" kinda way, which indicates that if there was no protest going on, DJ found the person to not be photogenic.Originally posted by Kil
I don't think what DJ said was so bad. He opined that the person might have been protesting. He hoped so. I don't see in there where he was dissing transgenders for being transgender or saying that they must meet his standards of appearance. While I don't always agree with DJ, I think this is looking for a nit to pick. |
Obviously some trans* feel differently. What might be a nit in your opinion could be a full-on face-sucker to others.
Most of the outrage seems to be because DJ could have handled this much differently. Here's one suggestion:So, what is it with people in public positions and the seeming inability to say "whoops, sorry?"
I mean, this shouldn't have gone anywhere. If he was making a compliment poorly, he should've realized it when the first person took offense at his words. He could have closed the post and offered a quick retraction and apology.
But he didn't. He doubled down and made himself look worse for it. And now he's got a bunch of TERFs and transphobes and arseholes in his comment thread. But DJ's got a seeming habit of doubling down in the face of criticism, so the result is par for the course.| Of course, now it's all blown up thanks to Myers... |
Wow, you've got a serious thing against him, don't you? How many of the 500+ Facebook comments were there before Myers posted about it? All I can tell for sure is that there were at least 41 comments on DJ's FB post when Myers posted his comment #16 on his own blog. And another 30 FB comments by the time of Zenlike's #36, which was timestamped 40 minutes later.| ...(who created a starawman out of what DJ said, or did everyone miss that?) |
I think you missed the part where DJ judged that person's appearance to be worthy of a Facebook post.| Why not just take DJ at his word? |
Doing so suggests that he's an asshat, for the reasons given above. Nobody is suggesting that he's lying about any of this, after all. He posted something that (at best) appeared insensitive, has refused to apologize for appearing insensitive even while trying to clarify, and is now appearing to allow the actual trans* haters or other asshats the run of his thread (one guy showed up just to drop Helen Keller jokes, FFS). Whatever DJ's initial intention was, it certainly doesn't magically excuse what he inarguably has done (or avoided doing).| Or at least give him the benefit of the doubt? |
How many benefits of a doubt should DJ get?| He is a part of the LBTG rights movement after all. |
That's like saying that we should reserve judgment on someone who claims that Bigfoot exists because they're a dues-paying CFI member. There's no shortage of trans* hatred amongst the LBG parts of that movement. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2013 : 11:52:16 [Permalink]
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I first saw the Myers comment when you posted it, Dave. Sorry. I just figured he got the ball rolling. And like your take on DJ, it's not that far out of an assumption.
As for the rest, yeah. DJs comment might be perceived as being insensitive. He tried to explain himself, and instead of accepting it or giving him the benefit of the doubt, he's accused of doubling down. His only option for one camp is to apologize. Then we move on to the next perceived (or real) slight.
Dave:
Because the alternative is that the person just looks that way, without intending to make a statement, and that'd be somehow disappointing to DJ Grothe. |
Like we haven't all seen some crazy looking people? Shockingly so? Again, that doesn't mean he was dissing transgenders, or that this particular transgender didn't also look crazy. So he hoped there was a reason for it. I suppose his best move would have been to not mention it. But he did.
Dave:
How many benefits of a doubt should DJ get? |
How many has he gotten? And you do realize how close this is to an ad-hom, right? Same as what I do to Myers, I suppose.
There is plenty that DJ has done that I don't agree with. But this is just crap. And the crap is coming from all sides.
I'm now going to stay the hell out of this one. Fuck it. Sorry I said anything about it. I pretty much knew what would happen if I did.
Both sides can go suck an egg as far as I'm concerned. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Unbelievable
