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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26031 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2013 :  13:16:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

As for the rest, yeah. DJs comment might be perceived as being insensitive. He tried to explain himself, and instead of accepting it or giving him the benefit of the doubt, he's accused of doubling down. His only option for one camp is to apologize.
In normal social interactions, if you accidentally cause someone harm or even distress, you apologize and then clarify or explain. You don't start out by saying (in effect), "no, I didn't hurt you."
Then we move on to the next perceived (or real) slight.
Yes, that's DJ's pattern, now, it appears.
Dave:
Because the alternative is that the person just looks that way, without intending to make a statement, and that'd be somehow disappointing to DJ Grothe.
Like we haven't all seen some crazy looking people? Shockingly so? Again, that doesn't mean he was dissing transgenders, or that this particular transgender didn't also look crazy. So he hoped there was a reason for it. I suppose his best move would have been to not mention it. But he did.
Yes, and he then refused to deal with the consequences appropriately.
How many benefits of a doubt should DJ get?
How many has he gotten?
Let's see... When he claimed that Rebecca Watson was driving women away from TAM, we were supposed to give him TBOAD that he'd misspoken (he hadn't). When he claimed that JREF had never received any complaints of sexual harassment at TAMs, we were supposed to give him TBOAD that he just wasn't aware of the complaints (he was). Now this?
And you do realize how close this is to an ad-hom, right?
DJ doesn't deserve another benefit of a doubt, therefore... what, exactly?
There is plenty that DJ has done that I don't agree with. But this is just crap. And the crap is coming from all sides.
It could have been nothing if DJ had handled it differently.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26031 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2013 :  13:23:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dawkins continues his cluelessness.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13481 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2013 :  19:11:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave:
In normal social interactions, if you accidentally cause someone harm or even distress, you apologize and then clarify or explain.

So. Has any transgender person complained? Is the LBTG community offended? Have they said so? Has anyone said anything from the group that might feel unfairly targeted?

If so, I can't find it. Maybe you know?


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26031 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2013 :  20:29:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Has any transgender person complained? Is the LBTG community offended? Have they said so? Has anyone said anything from the group that might feel unfairly targeted?
You mean, aside from one of the first few comments on the Facebook thread, the one that set Barbara Drescher off on her dreams of a more oppressive society? Sure:
I've been there. I've been the person someone like DJ looks at and thinks just those thoughts above.

It hurts. Tremendously, achingly, viscerally, it hurts. And yes, we can tell, every single time. If you think we can't, you've never been a marginalized person, never been someone whose safety, whose very
life, depends on being able to read just those kinds of reaction.

We can see it in your faces, your eyes, your body language, the talking out the side of your mouth, the little nods of direction given to a friend, the ways you pointedly
don't look at us, the laugh when you think we've turned away, we see it all. We have to.

It
hurts. Physically. A pain in the gut, an ache, "Will I ever be able to just walk down the street and not worry about this crap?"

This is the kind of thing that forces us into excessive displays of genderedness, because we have to reassert that aspect of ourselves if we want to be taken for who we are. It's why one of my friends never wears pants, even in some of the worst cold here in Canada*, because she doesn't want to have to suffer yet more pain of this kind. It creates its own problem, in the sense that "passing" becomes a survival skill, rather than a choice.

I'm not ever going somewhere that I know this walking collection of used bog-roll [DJ] will be. Between his rapeyness and his enthusiastic defence of rapeyness and his gross transphobia and general misogynist assholeishness...he can practice his oral autopodiatry somewhere I'm not.

* She lives in northern Alberta.
Just one example of many.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13481 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2013 :  10:59:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not ever going somewhere that I know this walking collection of used bog-roll [DJ] will be. Between his rapeyness and his enthusiastic defence of rapeyness and his gross transphobia and general misogynist assholeishness...he can practice his oral autopodiatry somewhere I'm not.

I'm thinking that an apology wouldn't have satisfied this person. I'm thinking that DJ isn't very popular in the world of FtBlogs. But your point has been made, Dave.

I still think the issue is nitpicking crap. Oh well...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26031 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2013 :  06:06:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

I'm thinking that an apology wouldn't have satisfied this person.
It'd be a start. And a change for the better.
I'm thinking that DJ isn't very popular in the world of FtBlogs.
People want to love DJ and enthusiastically support JREF because they inarguably do good work toward shared goals. That's the reason for the outrage. When DJ shits on people who want to support him, it feels like a betrayal (and it certainly was a betrayal in the case of the Skepchicks). If DJ ran a knitting foundation, probably none of the FtBloggers would care that he makes an ass of himself on a regular basis. Contrary to the loudmouths claiming that FtB is out to "destroy" TAM and the JREF, the people clamoring for change want DJ and the JREF to become better.

So no, currently DJ isn't very popular, but it's only because after he does something crappy, rather than fix the situation, he instead signals that he's not even going to try to be less crappy in the future.

Same thing, more or less, with Ron Lindsay and CFI.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2013 :  06:32:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

I'm not ever going somewhere that I know this walking collection of used bog-roll [DJ] will be. Between his rapeyness and his enthusiastic defence of rapeyness and his gross transphobia and general misogynist assholeishness...he can practice his oral autopodiatry somewhere I'm not.

I'm thinking that an apology wouldn't have satisfied this person.

I'm sorry Kil, but so what? If you have hurt someone, and someone explains to you how you have hurt them, the very first decent thing to do is apologize, regardless of whether this apology satisfies the person you have hurt.

I'm thinking that DJ isn't very popular in the world of FtBlogs. But your point has been made, Dave.

I still think the issue is nitpicking crap. Oh well...


The reason he is getting the pushback he gets, is because people actually like(d) the JREF. PZ went to TAM and spoke admirably if the JREF in the past, skepchick held drives to send women to TAM, people like Randi. The reason people voiced criticism of DJ, is because he is fucking up. The reason the cricism gets harsher and harsher is because every time DJ fucks up, instead of owning up to his mistakes, he doubles down and digs in deeper.

There was no original animosity with DJ, the JREF or TAM. That animosity has started and is growing because DJ needs to get an experienced communications officer and shut his mouth for the time being.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
Edited by - tomk80 on 11/07/2013 06:34:05
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13481 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2013 :  09:15:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm frustrated by the same thing you guys are. I just see a level of hypersensitivity coming from both sides that to me seems uncalled for. I don't blindly support anyone. I'm fully aware of DJ's mistakes and his stubbornness when called out on them. On the other side, I see people who will defend just anything if it comes from, well... The other side. That' s why I said "both sides can suck an egg..." What bothers me is that I honestly believe this particular remark wouldn't have bothered anyone if DJ weren't already a marked man. But it's open season on DJ, and he's at least partly to blame. I say partly because nothing he says will be excused as being an innocent observation. Offense will be taken. And then we are off and running.

I can't make DJ behave himself. I can't make anyone on either side of this stuff behave themselves. But I can point out when a trivial remark is turned into another "gate." And it's being done on both sides.

Someone must show some restraint, sometime, or this will be never ending. Aren't there enough real issues to leave the nit-picking out of skeptical community issues? I guess not. Perhaps my problem is I have friends on both sides who I often agree with and often disagree with. But they are still friends of mine. And for an old timer like me, that makes this stuff particularly painful to watch.

Now I can already hear it. DJ brought this on himself and yada yada. There will be no backing off. No benefit of the doubt. Nothing. But the way I see it, this just trivializes the real issues by treating it as the same thing. And the response will be the same too. Are there no fucking grown ups left in our movement?

Take this post as a whole thought. Don't miss the point in what I'm saying by breaking it down line by line. Sometimes I think the forest is missed for the trees. Just saying.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26031 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2013 :  10:44:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

I say partly because nothing he says will be excused as being an innocent observation.
Intent isn't magic, Kil. People can have the most innocent of intentions and still accidentally cause harm. So even if it's an innocent observation, he should have apologized for being insensitive, at the very least.
Offense will be taken. And then we are off and running.
No, DJ could have stopped it.
But I can point out when a trivial remark...
Sigh. Trivial to you. Obviously nowhere close to trivial for others. You're not trans*, Kil. Don't assume that they feel the same way that you do.
Someone must show some restraint, sometime, or this will be never ending.
It won't end until the sexists, rape apologists and other bigots quit. Restraint in the face of assaults isn't noble or wise. Look where it got Dr. Pamela Gay.
Aren't there enough real issues to leave the nit-picking out of skeptical community issues?
Dear Muslima...
I guess not. Perhaps my problem is I have friends on both sides who I often agree with and often disagree with. But they are still friends of mine. And for an old timer like me, that makes this stuff particularly painful to watch.
I'm sure it's much more painful to be a victim of even accidental bias.
Now I can already hear it. DJ brought this on himself and yada yada. There will be no backing off. No benefit of the doubt. Nothing.
No, instead he had how he screwed up explained to him, but he remained in denial. Good grief! If he were given no benefit of a doubt, then nobody would be trying to convince him about how and why what he said got the response it did! He's been given the benefit of a doubt that he's willing to listen, and he keeps proving himself incapable.
But the way I see it, this just trivializes the real issues by treating this as the same thing. And the response will be the same too. Are there no fucking grown ups left in our movement?
Yes, there are, and they fucking apologize when they screw up, even if it's "trivial."
Take this post as a whole thought. Don't miss the point in what I'm saying by breaking it down line by line. Sometimes I think the forest is missed for the trees. Just saying.
No, there are a lot of different thoughts in there that needed addressing.

If you want me to quit posting about the sexism problems within the skeptical movement here on SFN, I will, but it won't make the problems vanish, it'll just keep you more ignorant of them.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13481 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2013 :  11:12:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave:
If you want me to quit posting about the sexism problems within the skeptical movement here on SFN, I will, but it won't make the problems vanish, it'll just keep you more ignorant of them.

You know that's not what I asked. And if you think you are the one where I get most of this news from, you're wrong. I see it and then I wait for you to post about it, because I know it's coming. Most of the community is buzzing about it on facebook before it ever reaches SFN. In this case, I was bummed by the reaction to it by some of my friends, same as you. The only thing I missed was the original complaint and assumed it was Myers.

And I am offended by that "Dear Muslima" comparison. I was talking about whether Shermer should be allowed back to TAM, and the defense of Radford, and stuff like that which should have been clear in the context I wrote that sentence in. I'm complaining about both sides. Get it?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26031 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2013 :  13:45:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

You know that's not what I asked.
It's what I was offering.
And if you think you are the one where I get most of this news from, you're wrong. I see it and then I wait for you to post about it, because I know it's coming. Most of the community is buzzing about it on facebook before it ever reaches SFN.
Yeah, I should really quit acting like I know anything about the community. I'm not really a part of it. I inhabit one little corner.
And I am offended by that "Dear Muslima" comparison. I was talking about whether Shermer should be allowed back to TAM, and the defense of Radford, and stuff like that which should have been clear in the context I wrote that sentence in. I'm complaining about both sides. Get it?
"Dear Muslima" refers to the idea that larger problems should be addressed while letting little things slide. But in many social justice arenas, addressing the little things will fix many of the big problems. Take sexism, for example: if we had a society in which people policed themselves to eliminate the teensy-weensy slights that often go overlooked but happen hundreds or thousands of times a day, do you think that big-problem overt sexism would survive?

Every problem is a problem. Some are big and some are small, and I'm glad we have lots of different people with lots of different priorities that ensures that all the problems get addressed at least some of the time.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13481 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2013 :  19:46:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ahhh... Well I suppose it's okay to say "Dear Muslima" to me then. I wasn't aware that Dawkins very offensive and uncalled for statement to RW now only means blowing off small problems. Huh. Welp. No need to apologize I guess. You know... Now that you have explained what you meant by it.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13481 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2013 :  20:10:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave:
Yeah, I should really quit acting like I know anything about the community. I'm not really a part of it. I inhabit one little corner.

It does seem to be that I know about this stuff before you post about it. That's a correct observation, no matter what the reason for it is. Perhaps it's a time thing or something else. I dunno. My assumption, because of the size of my facebook friends list which includes people on every side of every issue, including several FtBloggers, might be wrong. But I sure didn't mean that you don't know what's going on in the community. And I also got part of it wrong, as per your correction.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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LizW
Skeptic Friend

USA
113 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2013 :  03:33:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send LizW a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Whoops! This was actually written by me, Dave W. My wife musta been logged in and I didn't notice 'cause it was oh-dark-thirty.
Originally posted by Kil

Ahhh... Well I suppose it's okay to say "Dear Muslima" to me then. I wasn't aware that Dawkins very offensive and uncalled for statement to RW now only means blowing off small problems. Huh. Welp. No need to apologize I guess. You know... Now that you have explained what you meant by it.
But that's what Dawkins meant by it. He was calling Watson out for complaining about the "zero bad" incident of being propositioned on an elevator while there exist more-serious problems like female genital mutilation elsewhere in the world.

To be told that one should suffer one's small problems in silence while The Most Important Problem in The World still exists is, yes, offensive and uncalled for. And that's how I read your suggestion that spending time on DJ's casual and probably accidental trans* bigotry is "nit picking" while, say, Michael Shermer still roams free.

So yes, there is a need to apologize, but I don't think it's mine.

You learn something new every g****mn day!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13481 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2013 :  09:11:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sigh...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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