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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  16:10:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil
His grenade metaphor, all of the phoney hand wringing and so on were a great example of his own self promotion on a serious issue. Poor PZ for being handed this information. Riiight...
I disagree with your assessment of his motives.

By the way, Shermer has now threatened to sue, which is not surprising considering the way he reacted to Ophelia Benson's mild criticism of one of his remarks.

PZ writes:
So, Michael Shermer’s lawyers have sent me a letter (pdf). It consists of accusations that I lied about being contacted directly by the victim of his assault (which is not true; that I had corroboration from other people does not imply that there was no primary source), that I did it for the blog hits (Jeebus, no, this does not profit me in the slightest and is more likely to have a long term cost to me), that I acted in malice against Shermer (also entirely false — I have nothing against the man), and that Shermer is shocked, shocked I tell you, never having ever heard such an accusation against him before (given that my correspondent has email from him making excuses for his behavior, this is clearly a lie).

"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/12/2013 16:11:29
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  18:07:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

By the way, Shermer has now threatened to sue...
And that post is now gone, but now there's this one:
I have communicated with Ken White at Popehat, who often secures pro bono assistance for bloggers threatened with defamation suits. He has committed to help me and to attempt to secure counsel for me.
Ken White has got to be working pro bono overtime, these days.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13476 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  18:10:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Humbert:
I disagree with your assessment of his motives.

Which motives? The self promotion part or presenting the information part? Even in this thread, I am not the only one who noticed the self promotion part. Even though it's well known around here that I'm no fan of Myers anymore, it doesn't take someone like me to notice that he was milking that post for all it was worth, regardless of his more noble motives.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  18:27:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Back to Stollznow, Myers posted that her blog piece talking about (but not naming) Radford and CFI has been removed. From Twitter:
My ed at Scientific American Mind just told me that CFI issued a "legal challenge" for them to take down my article about sexual harassment
Ron Lindsay tells her that's wrong, that CFI only asked SciAm to make "three specific corrections," and blogged the details. Sadly, that post includes a plea for pity:
CFI depends heavily on donations for its income. Ms. Stollznow's false claims can be expected to have an adverse impact on our ability to raise funds. Indeed, following the appearance of Ms. Stollznow's blog post, I have already received two e-mails indicating that individuals would not support CFI. Ms. Stollznow's allegations also will have an adverse effect on our ability to recruit staff.
A plea which is ludicrous to bring up considering how much of the same sort of correspondence he must have received after his performance at WIS2. Commenters at Pharyngula point out that they decided to withdraw their support of CFI specifically because of Ron Lindsay. Is he doing anything to protect CFI from himself?

Dissent of a Woman and Nate Hevenstone have both mirrored Dr. Stollznow's original piece.

Richard Carrier notes that New York labor law states that nothing can be made public about an employee other than dates of hiring and termination, and Carrier states that CFI and Ron Lindsay are using this law to hide unethical behavior of its employees (according to Carrier, unethical behavior of Ron Lindsay specifically) from potential and current CFI donors. Carrier thinks that if the Catholic Church were hiding behind this law, that CFI would be leading a campaign to have the law overturned.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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alienist
Skeptic Friend

USA
210 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  18:27:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send alienist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have been following all these events. Other people have made good comments about believing victims and I think the cartoon is spot on. I have also been thinking about the backlash against this information and emotional reaction to PZ Myers. I think it is easier to imagine being falsely accused and thus being afraid of this. It is harder to imagine being a victim of violence or rape.
I think about the motivation for someone to make a false accusation. In the cases of accusers of Radford and Sherman, they are not really gaining much. I could go on but I think other people have made better comments.
Now, of course, lawyers have become involved so it is all silenced. I am hoping that more people will speak up if they witness any sexual harassment or assault.

The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  19:38:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Greta Christina has a great post titled, "Harassment, Rape, and the Difference Between Skepticism and Denialism."

No quote, go read it all.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  19:52:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, Kil, going back to page one, I'd like to point something out. I know you didn't mean it this way, but this is problematic:
Originally posted by Kil

I worry that this will turn into a witch hunt.
Witch hunts were bad because witches don't exist. Comparing accusations of harassment with witch hunts essentially sends the message that "he harassed me" is equivalent to "she cast a curse on me." You're saying - and again, I know you didn't mean to - that harassment couldn't possibly have happened, and the accuser is necessarily lying. But harassment exists and is extremely common, unlike witches.
People need to be very careful about the accusations they make. And especially skeptics do.
You're very much correct.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  19:54:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and here's more corroboration of Dr. Stollznow's complaints:
I recognize that I cannot be un-biased about this, nor do I want to be. Karen is one of my closest friends, so is her husband. I was the officiant at their wedding – I performed the ceremony. A couple of years ago when we both had better work schedules, Karen and I had a standing coffee date. For about a year, we spent a couple of hours a day, three or four days a week together. It happened to be in many ways, what would be the peak of her harassment. I saw firsthand, the emails, text messages and phone calls that took place. Though it seemed like she received something from him every day, that’s probably not true. Certainly though, never a week went by without her receiving something. Though often thinly veiled, it was definitely inappropriate and over the long-term, constituted harassment.

In two multi-hour phone interviews and in about a dozen emails, this is exactly what I told the investigator that had been hired to investigate the matter. I also told them how it was so bad that I offered on numerous occasions to fly to the person’s home town and have a talk with him. To tell him that what he was doing was wrong and that he needed to stop it. She asked me not to because she thought he would just deny it and she hoped it would soon end. I think that since she is such a private person, having her personal dirty laundry aired would have been horribly embarrassing to her. Sadly, this is one of the reasons that this kind of behavior often goes unreported.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  20:07:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Which motives? The self promotion part or presenting the information part? Even in this thread, I am not the only one who noticed the self promotion part. Even though it's well known around here that I'm no fan of Myers anymore, it doesn't take someone like me to notice that he was milking that post for all it was worth, regardless of his more noble motives.
What does Myers gain from such self-promotion?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13476 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  20:20:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave:
What does Myers gain from such self-promotion?

You would have to ask him that question. I know he isn't suffering for blog hits. Ego?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13476 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  20:37:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave:
But harassment exists and is extremely common, unlike witches.

You're right. I don't mean to deny that sexual or any other kind of harassment or abuse exists. Or that it's uncommon. I was thinking more along the lines of a McMartin Preschool kind of thing. The phrase "witch hunt" doesn't necessarily mean something that doesn't exist anymore. There really were communists and communist sympathizers when McCarthy engaged in his witch hunt.

And before anyone gets their knickers in a bind, I'm not at all saying that's what's going on here. I just worry that the climate is ripe for it. I could be wrong. I probably am. But it's a worry I have.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  21:08:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil
I was thinking more along the lines of a McMartin Preschool kind of thing.
Oh? And what are the parallels there? That was a case of overzealous authorities using coercive questioning techniques on young children. These are adult women coming forward of their own volition. Are you suggesting they have been coached in some manner?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/12/2013 21:11:45
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13476 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  21:17:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Kil
I was thinking more along the lines of a McMartin Preschool kind of thing.
Oh? And what are the parallels there? That was a case of overzealous authorities using coercive questioning techniques on young children. These are adult women coming forward of their own volition. Are you suggesting they have been coached in some manner?


And I also used McCarthy. I was just pointing out that a witch hunt doesn't have to be about something that doesn't exist.

And did you even bother to read my whole post? I'm not fucking suggesting anything.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  21:33:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, well warning people to not get all hysterical and go on a witch hunt like the "McMartin Preschool thing" is insulting, Kil. It's an insulting comparison.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13476 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2013 :  21:36:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Ok, well warning people to not get all hysterical and go on a witch hunt like the "McMartin Preschool thing" is insulting, Kil. It's an insulting comparison.


You're insulted because I worry? Knock yourself out.

Where exactly did I warn people to not get hysterical?

Humbert. You clearly have a bug up your ass. Try instead of reacting to my posts, reading them first. Look for the actual content instead of what you want the content to be.

Just a suggestion from a friend and fellow skeptic.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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