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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2013 : 21:43:29 [Permalink]
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Grothe digs deeper:Look at that! Not a nasty word, not an intemperate statement. It’s positively cheerful, with a genuine question at the end, looking for that thing that skeptics love above all, evidence in support of some claim. It got a whole bunch of likes, apparently more than anything else on the thread!
D.J. deleted the comment. And went on to delete another asking if there had been a deletion.
DJ Grothe is trying to pretend that stuff that exists doesn't really exist. This is behavior antithetical to skepticism. How is it he still has supporters within the movement? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail) Evidently, I rock! Why not question something for a change? Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2013 : 14:59:25 [Permalink]
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So David Silverman "liked" the Mr. Deity video, which prompted a bunch of confusion by people ho know and like Silverman. kellym decided to use American Atheists' "Contact Us" form, and got a reply in minutes:Thank you for your message. Our president happens to be on vacation this week and is out of the office, but I’m SURE he didn’t watch the video past the credits before tweeting that—I didn’t do so myself until someone pointed it out to me. I have never known him to victim-blame or perpetuate rape culture in any way, shape, or form. In fact one of the reasons I wanted to work for American Atheists in the first place (I started here about six months ago) is that American Atheists was the first of all the atheist orgs to enact a harassment policy at their conventions and events following Rebecca Watson’s talk about her experience on the elevator at the conference in Ireland three years ago. Every single one of us on staff identifies as a feminist and although I can’t speak for him directly, I’m certain it wasn’t intentional. Thank you again for telling us about your concerns.
Sincerely, Dave Muscato
Ian Bushfield: A pox on (some of) your housesBy writing off the entire movement, these donors and volunteers forget how many people – and I suspect it’s a sizable majority – want to see things continually improve. By solely focusing on the negatives, they write off everyone who is actively working to make things better either within the troubled institutions (many of the local groups and volunteers are equally forward-thinking) or in independent organizations.
I guess my point is that we should not be so quick to dismiss the hard work of numerous organizations that are not involved in this mess. We can demand better and ought to work to see the movement we want to see. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail) Evidently, I rock! Why not question something for a change? Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2562 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2013 : 18:18:52 [Permalink]
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People like Bushfield and Myers have the right of it: Investigate who's doing this stuff and clean them out. If required, get the law after them.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm (excerpt follows): > I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget. > Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat. > > **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his > incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007 > much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well > know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred. > > Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop. > Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my > illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of > the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there > and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd > still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26031 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2013 : 23:45:27 [Permalink]
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Ouch!
That reminds me. I wish Garvey had written back. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2013 : 09:15:05 [Permalink]
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Some updates and news:
On August 8, a guy named Dallas Haugh left a suicide note on his Tumblr, in which he said that he is "fairly certain that Michael Shermer had nonconsensual sex with me" at TAM6, by getting Haugh drunk. Haugh has clarified that he meant what he said, and asked, "Please make a big deal out of it."
In Dunning-Kruger Morality, Ophelia Benson shreds a post by Emory Emory who begins with a couple of lies in one sentence:The in-groupers at FtB have been attempting to redefine flirting as sexual harassment and sexual intercourse as rape.
Brian Dalton tries to squeeze out of the hole he dug himself, saying that the bit with refusing the wine was only in response to a single paragraph in PZ's "grenade" post. But that paragraph was in support of the original rape allegation which, contrary to Dalton's statement, did involve alcohol. Later, he tries to tell us what a good boy he is regarding rape in general, and then tells us his conditions for believing a claim about sexual assault which, contrary to what's in this video, involve him seeing it happen first-hand. At the end of the video, he has this come on-screen:P.S. All claims require evidence, whether they are extraordinary or not. And a claim, in and of itself, is not, by definition, evidence. Ironically, he provides no evidence for these claims.
Ophelia Benson has more to say:If you do a parable and people don’t figure out exactly what the reference is, it’s conceivable that that’s your doing and not theirs. It’s obnoxious to get belligerent about it.
Running with the "all claims require evidence" theme, above, several people tried their hand at hyperskepticism of mundane claims. Dana Hunter took on robbery; PZ Myers visited SkepDoc, M.D., and Ophelia Benson is pitching a new show called Extreme Skeptics™.
Stephanie Zvan offers "a couple of quick heuristics to make your life easier." The first is a test to see if you're blaming victims, the second is a test to see if your group has a problem.
Greta Christina discusses unnamed sources in the context of Watergate.
The Michael Shermer Legal Fund: Emory Emory (see above) has started an Indiegogo campaign for Shermer's legal team. I find this interesting. Most legal fund campaigns seem to me to be devoted to defending people from an over-reaching or otherwise unfair prosecution. This one is for filing a lawsuit (which looks to me like a SLAPP suit anyway). Ashley Miller points out the politics behind the fund:Ah, so donating to this is not, in fact, an attempt to help Shermer get decent representation, but rather a way to condemn unnamed victims who come forward with their stories. Got it.
Lastly, if anyone needs more evidence that FTB isn't a "hivemind," in The eros of the podium, FTBloggers (not just commenters) disagree with each other over whether it'd be okay for a convention speaker to try to get lucky with a mere attendee.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail) Evidently, I rock! Why not question something for a change? Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2013 : 10:11:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
The Michael Shermer Legal Fund: Emory Emory (see above) has started an Indiegogo campaign for Shermer's legal team. I find this interesting. Most legal fund campaigns seem to me to be devoted to defending people from an over-reaching or otherwise unfair prosecution. This one is for filing a lawsuit (which looks to me like a SLAPP suit anyway). Ashley Miller points out the politics behind the fund:Ah, so donating to this is not, in fact, an attempt to help Shermer get decent representation, but rather a way to condemn unnamed victims who come forward with their stories. Got it.
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Well, perhaps. But many of the comments about this that I have seen on fb mostly say they don't know if Shermer is guilty or not, but he has the right to defend his name and reputation in an openly transparent way by way of the legal system which is really the only avenue available to him. And I don't know how anyone can logically disagree with that assessment.
Emory Emory seems to have more of an agenda than that. But whatever... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2013 : 12:04:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Well, perhaps. But many of the comments about this that I have seen on fb mostly say they don't know if Shermer is guilty or not, but he has the right to defend his name and reputation in an openly transparent way by way of the legal system which is really the only avenue available to him. And I don't know how anyone can logically disagree with that assessment. | He does have that right, yes. Anyone has the right to threaten and/or file a lawsuit against anyone else for any reason. I think his lawyers should have advised him against it, though. Especially if the state he files in has strong anti-SLAPP laws. I doubt Ken "Popehat" White would be helping PZ out if the whole thing didn't look SLAPPish to him.
And it's still weird to see a legal fund for the purpose of filing a lawsuit. Again: mostly, when people are asked to contribute to such a fund, it's to provide for defense against a lawsuit or criminal proceeding, not to start one. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail) Evidently, I rock! Why not question something for a change? Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2013 : 13:38:14 [Permalink]
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Ophelia Benson on Emory's fundraiser:We’ve “set [our] sights on skepticism and atheism in general” – what does that mean? We want to shoot and kill skepticism and atheism? No we don’t. We “want to do harm to the institutions” – what does that mean? Nothing, really; it’s gibberish. If he means we want secularist and skeptical organizations to do a much better job of dealing with sexism and sexual harassment, and of including women instead of ignoring them, then yes, we do. But guess what – that’s not “doing harm” to them. On the contrary, it’s making them better.
And I forgot Sarah Jones' Extraordinary Nonsense:My skepticism will be intersectional or it will be bullshit. I will question rape culture. I will demand that my experiences, and the experiences of people of color, of queer folks and disabled folks and poor folks, receive respect and attention within skepticism. Do you really think I’d have left fundamentalism if I hadn’t been the least bit skeptical about its gender roles? Its homophobia? Its ableism? A skepticism that doesn’t address gender, or sexual identity, or racism isn’t capable of addressing all the myriad reasons why people question and abandon religious dogma. A skepticism without these elements isn’t really skepticism and it shouldn’t be labelled as such. It’s just white male supremacy dressed up in different rhetoric. It is the status quo.
Richard Carrier weighs in on Emory's myth of an FTB campaign against sex:It’s amusing (as Stephanie Zvan has already pointed out) to see this guy think this–but disturbing to see him tell people this, and thus misinform the public about us and our movement–when the leading proponents of Atheism+ are people like Greta Christina, who has written fondly of her work as a stripper and porn star and writes and publishes porn herself, and writes extensively in defense of alternative sex culture and sex-positive feminism. Or Alex Gabriel and Miri Mogilevsky, who are openly polyamorous. Or Jen McCreight, who is a public connoisseur of pornography. And on and on. Indeed, many of my friends in the atheist community are polyamorous, or actively participate in the BDSM or swinging communities, some even have orgies and sex parties…at atheist conferences! And you know what? All of them tend to be the most enthusiastic supporters of Atheism+. And of sound sexual harassment policies.
Miri Mogilevsky discusses the difference between flirting and harassment - most importantly how tolerating "I was just flirting" as an excuse for harassment enables the harassers:First of all, it’s crucially important to understand that playing innocent is something sexual harassers do to hide their tracks. When caught in the act, they protest that they were “just flirting” and it was “all in good fun” and that they “have no idea what [target] is so upset about.” They pretend to be socially awkward and inept, and that they just “didn’t realize” that their actions would make others feel violated and uncomfortable. They claim that there was a “miscommunication,” although evidence suggests that people are quite good at communicating about boundaries, even if they do so using veiled language.
Accepting prima facie this idea that claims of sexual harassment result from one person being “awkward” and the other person not giving them the benefit of the doubt is harmful, because it allows predators to use awkwardness as an excuse. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail) Evidently, I rock! Why not question something for a change? Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2013 : 15:16:21 [Permalink]
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I finally read this thread, as well as half or more of its links.
I didn't know anything about this particular mess until now. I'm stunned.
Long before, I was initially skeptical (in retrospect, hyperskeptical) of the claims and possible motivations of Rebecca Watson after "Elevator Gate." I was worried that skeptical organizations might be destroyed by the controversy. That hyperskepticism gradually turned to confused neutrality during our discussions here.
Now, after reading the above, I believe what Rebecca Watson had said then, and I think her experiences were the merest tip of a sexist and denialist iceberg that I now realize has been long institutionalized in the atheist and skeptical movements.
I provisionally believe the present accusers also.
I truly believe the skeptical/atheist movement will only be improved by organizations such as CSI and probably JREF being disgraced and ultimately destroyed. Those groups have proven that they are unwilling to correct their previous abuses. They have only dug their defensive trenches deeper rather than correcting their mistakes. And several of the prominent skeptics that I once respected have proven that they are dangerous sexist sociopaths, liars, or misogynists. "We" will not grow our movement if we behave like fundamentalists and leave out, threaten, or belittle, half of the human race. The organizations that ultimately pick up the slack will be better, more inclusive, and therefor more effective than the ones that must die. Think of it as evolution in action.
I for one, applaud the accusers and PZ Myers for exposing this mess. I don't see anything in this for them, other than the satisfaction of doing what they see as right. I don't blame the victims for the crimes they suffered, nor the messengers for the contents of their messages. And in this matter, I don't give a shit whether PZ is a jerk or a hero. That's irrelevant. The important matter is, was he right? It seems to me he was, and that he, like the women who reported the abuse to him, has done us all a great service. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2013 : 20:47:32 [Permalink]
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The CFI has many chapters that have nothing much to do with what takes place in Buffalo. There are a lot of really great people who go to TAM and have been inspired by James Randi. I don't think the community (such as it is) would be well served if either organization went away. We can debate about changes that should be made, and that debate is going on, but on the whole, both organizations have been a force for good.
Now having said that, my real home for skepticism is here at SFN. This thread is one reason why I'm proud of this site. We can discuss this stuff. There is no discussion going on in some quarters. I'm seeing people leaving organized skepticism because of it. And I get that. The constant bickering between factions (whether they admit to being a "faction" or not) is tiring. And it's not what a lot of us got into skepticism for. In truth, I should be bummed out by this thread because I have friends on both sides of the issue who have drawn battle lines and are busy unfriending each other over on facebook. But here on our little forum, there is a discussion. No one is flipping out. No one is flaming anyone. And when we don't agree we are still able to work together and get stuff done. And that's a good thing. Maybe it's because of the pace of our forum, or because we think of it as our forum that makes the difference. I dunno. We are The Skeptic Friends Network after all.
The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise. |
Well... Yes.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2013 : 05:43:22 [Permalink]
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What is disappointing to me about this whole debacle is that it seems that despite all the knowledge and the supposed study of logic and reason, that some people cannot get past their base animalistic desires and bias and the whole host of logical fallacies that see being performed. It does make one wonder if, for all that we deride the far right loony binnerfherders (for lack of a better word, seriously), we are not so different as we like to think. |
by Filthy The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Edited by - pleco on 08/22/2013 12:37:24 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2013 : 09:49:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
What is disappointing to me about this whole debacle is that it seems that despite all the knowledge and the supposed study of logic and reason, that some people cannot get past their base animalistic desires and bias and the whole host of logical fallacies that see being performed. It does make one wonder if, for all that we deride the far right loony bin, we are not so different as we like to think.
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You really need to watch the South Park two-parter Go God Go! Sums it up perfectly. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2013 : 09:53:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Long before, I was initially skeptical (in retrospect, hyperskeptical) of the claims and possible motivations of Rebecca Watson after "Elevator Gate." I was worried that skeptical organizations might be destroyed by the controversy. That hyperskepticism gradually turned to confused neutrality during our discussions here.
Now, after reading the above, I believe what Rebecca Watson had said then, and I think her experiences were the merest tip of a sexist and denialist iceberg that I now realize has been long institutionalized in the atheist and skeptical movements. | And I applaud a changed mind.
I'm not trying to be condescending. If we're to effectively combat the problems within the movement(s), we not only have to call out bad behavior, but also highlight and reward good choices. I may not always use the right words when trying to do so, and so I might come off like an insincere ass, but I try.
Good job, Mooner. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail) Evidently, I rock! Why not question something for a change? Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2013 : 11:22:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Long before, I was initially skeptical (in retrospect, hyperskeptical) of the claims and possible motivations of Rebecca Watson after "Elevator Gate." I was worried that skeptical organizations might be destroyed by the controversy. That hyperskepticism gradually turned to confused neutrality during our discussions here.
Now, after reading the above, I believe what Rebecca Watson had said then, and I think her experiences were the merest tip of a sexist and denialist iceberg that I now realize has been long institutionalized in the atheist and skeptical movements. | And I applaud a changed mind.
I'm not trying to be condescending. If we're to effectively combat the problems within the movement(s), we not only have to call out bad behavior, but also highlight and reward good choices. I may not always use the right words when trying to do so, and so I might come off like an insincere ass, but I try.
Good job, Mooner.
| Thank ye. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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