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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
 Posted - 08/22/2013 : 12:00:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
What is disappointing to me about this whole debacle is that it seems that despite all the knowledge and the supposed study of logic and reason, that some people cannot get past their base animalistic desires and bias and the whole host of logical fallacies that see being performed. It does make one wonder if, for all that we deride the far right loony bin, we are not so different as we like to think. |
If the evidence that Shermer and his supporters are mostly libertarians, then they are on the far-right. Plus, the haters and anti-policy people constantly borrow the memes of other far-right groups, like how feminists are simultaneously sluts and prudes. The skeptic/atheist movements are most-assuredly not full of liberal hippies (though it should be, IMHO).
(Speaking of social justice, can we lay off terms like "loony bin?" People with mental health issues who are interested in therapy don't need stigmatizing terms like that when deciding whether or not to seek help from, say, a psychiatric hospital. I've heard that it's okay to apply words like "crazy" to ideas and not people or institutions, but for my tastes, that's playing a little close to the line.) |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2013 : 12:22:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Long before, I was initially skeptical (in retrospect, hyperskeptical) of the claims and possible motivations of Rebecca Watson after "Elevator Gate." I was worried that skeptical organizations might be destroyed by the controversy. That hyperskepticism gradually turned to confused neutrality during our discussions here.
Now, after reading the above, I believe what Rebecca Watson had said then, and I think her experiences were the merest tip of a sexist and denialist iceberg that I now realize has been long institutionalized in the atheist and skeptical movements.
I provisionally believe the present accusers also.
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This is pretty much what I've felt as well through this whole thing.
(Maybe with the exception that some of Rebecca Watson's supporters went way overboard by accusing the elevator guy of being almost-a-rapist, when it would have served them much better to stay calm and let the misogynists dig their own hole. What that controversy showed us was that both camps (man-hating ultra-feminists versus sexist male pigs) have hystericals among them who see only black-or-white with their own side being white, and who would gladly walk over dead bodies to accuse the opposite side of being Hilter-loving baby-eaters. This just makes me weary and disinterested because most of their claims run contrary to the world and reality as I perceive it.)
Having said that, I have taken a look at myself to see my place in the whole situation. What I discovered made realise that I too have stuff to work with. Ways of thinking and ways to express myself which is not optimal for a promotion of gender equality. But things which I have promised myself I will work on to make amends. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2013 : 12:27:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
It does make one wonder if, for all that we deride the far right loony bin, we are not so different as we like to think.
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That is one of the more unsettling realizations I've had thus far.   |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2013 : 12:36:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by pleco
What is disappointing to me about this whole debacle is that it seems that despite all the knowledge and the supposed study of logic and reason, that some people cannot get past their base animalistic desires and bias and the whole host of logical fallacies that see being performed. It does make one wonder if, for all that we deride the far right loony bin, we are not so different as we like to think. |
(Speaking of social justice, can we lay off terms like "loony bin?" People with mental health issues who are interested in therapy don't need stigmatizing terms like that when deciding whether or not to seek help from, say, a psychiatric hospital. I've heard that it's okay to apply words like "crazy" to ideas and not people or institutions, but for my tastes, that's playing a little close to the line.)
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Point taken. I understand and will edit accordingly. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/22/2013 12:39:16 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2013 : 12:38:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Originally posted by pleco
What is disappointing to me about this whole debacle is that it seems that despite all the knowledge and the supposed study of logic and reason, that some people cannot get past their base animalistic desires and bias and the whole host of logical fallacies that see being performed. It does make one wonder if, for all that we deride the far right loony bin, we are not so different as we like to think.
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You really need to watch the South Park two-parter Go God Go! Sums it up perfectly.
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Oh I have... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2013 : 12:55:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
But things which I have promised myself I will work on to make amends. |
Awesome!Originally posted by Pleco
Point taken. I understand... |
Cool. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2013 : 14:56:01 [Permalink]
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Back on August 12, Ken "Popehat" White called Shermer's lawsuit threat an "important case." Considering how vehemently White considers "the answer to offensive, hateful speech is more speech" to be good policy, almost every defamation case, to him, is going to be important to defend against as bullying via the legal system. So it's kinda funny seeing the other Twitter comments there calling PZ Myers a bully. (H/T Pteryxx)
The funders list for Emory's legal fund includes "jaminradford" (donated $40), which is the first part of Ben Radford's GMail address. (H/T James Patterson)
Brian Dalton is still playing games:Ashley's assault happened in a room full of people. Witnesses have backed her up and have been willing to make#65279; their names known publicly. Ashley told us where the assault happened and when. Ashley's entire story can be checked out. Had she named the person in question, there is so much detail to her story that the person in question could easily clear himself were she lying. No, Brian, you claimed to have been there. That is why you believe Ashley's story: you saw what happened first-hand, not because of the number of witnesses or the details in her account. Stop pretending otherwise.
And then Dalton drops his own pinless grenade:PZ's report was a hit job. But not for long. Stay tuned (and tubed)! Talk about building up drama! Can't wait to see what revelations he'll have for us next. 
So PZ Myers wrote a little post about donating to The Ada Initiative and was rewarded with a Tweet from someone hoping that Myers' daughter would be raped. But PZ is the bully/asshole/hysteric according to that sort of person.
Richard Carrier: Michael Shermer: Rapist or Sleaze? (Unless Box Checked for Other)We should also know that standards of evidence are on a sliding scale (belief is proportioned to the evidence) and not black and white (as if claims have to be either certainly true or certainly false…surely you’re sick of explaining that to Christians, so surely you can understand why atheists are sick of having to explain it to fellow atheists). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2013 : 18:32:24 [Permalink]
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Dave:
If the evidence that Shermer and his supporters are mostly libertarians, then they are on the far-right. |
That's a pretty big "if". And I'll say it again. A lot of people don't know if he did what he is accused of, but think that there should be a way for him to get a fair hearing. What is his recourse other than a law suit? But if he sues Myers, he will be accused of being a bully. Lose lose.
And I don't like Emery's thing at all. I wouldn't poke it with a stick because he has an agenda that I don't approve of. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1489 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2013 : 22:28:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Dave:
If the evidence that Shermer and his supporters are mostly libertarians, then they are on the far-right. |
That's a pretty big "if". |
Shermer himself seems to be an unabashed libertarian, and you've complained about libertarian materials being passed out at previous TAMs. I don't think it's a large leap at all.| And I'll say it again. A lot of people don't know if he did what he is accused of, but think that there should be a way for him to get a fair hearing. What is his recourse other than a law suit? But if he sues Myers, he will be accused of being a bully. Lose lose. |
Suing Myers for defamation will not get Shermer a fair hearing on the rape allegations. Shermer would need to show that Myers believed the allegations to be false to prevail, or that Myers didn't give a shit. All Myers needs to do is show that he could credibly believe them. In neither case would an argument necessarily be made that the accusations are actually true, even though truth is the best defense against a libel charge. But that would require the unnamed accusers coming forward, and there's plenty of good reasons that shouldn't have to happen (look at the Slymepit).
The point is that Shermer wouldn't be the one on trial. If Shermer actually files a lawsuit against Myers, then the one who our justice system demands get a fair hearing is Myers.
Shermer's got all sorts of non-litigious methods of defending himself. He could point to independent witnesses providing him innocent alibis, for example. Like, "I was with Shermer on the night in question, and he was nowhere near that woman." If, on the other hand, the charges are true, then to minimize the damage Shermer could make a heartfelt apology and promise to act better in the future. The only way a defamation lawsuit makes sense is if the accusations are false and it can be proven (in a legal sense) that Myers knew they were false.
Suggesting Myers did it for the blog hits, as the C&D letter does, is ridiculous on its face. That's the opposite of getting a fair hearing: it's Shermer's lawyer shooting Shermer in the foot. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2013 : 12:01:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
...but think that there should be a way for him to get a fair hearing. What is his recourse other than a law suit? |
What's preventing him from simply telling his side of the story?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2013 : 17:55:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Kil
...but think that there should be a way for him to get a fair hearing. What is his recourse other than a law suit? |
What's preventing him from simply telling his side of the story?
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He could do that. And there is a faction that will believe him, a faction that will not believe him, and some who will never know for sure and so will never take a side. Odds are that will also be the result of any suit brought by Shermer.
But it might come down to that. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2013 : 20:46:32 [Permalink]
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Having sex with someone too drunk to consent is rape. But getting so drunk that someone can rape you without even using force is stupid. I am not shifting blame away from the attacker, the rapist is 100% responsible for his actions. However it has to be said that the victims displayed poor judgement. Bluntly their behaviour is stupid. If you drive you car with no safety belt and through no fault of your own suffer an accident, you were stupid for not using precautions and taking responsibility for your own safety, the other driver is to blame and should accept the consequences, but simple buckling your safety belt would have protected yourself from the stupid/malicious acts of other fallible human beings.
I guess all I'm trying to say is that people need to take more care of themselves as we do not live in a perfect world. We can do our best to identify and punish attackers, but that's after the fact. Better to stay sober and stay alert, unless you are with trusted friends. |
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 08/24/2013 20:48:38 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2013 : 22:37:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Having sex with someone too drunk to consent is rape. But getting so drunk that someone can rape you without even using force is stupid. I am not shifting blame away from the attacker, the rapist is 100% responsible for his actions. However it has to be said that the victims displayed poor judgement. |
There are tricks one can use to get someone that drunk. Dalton's "just say no" strategy is blaming the victim, because in this society, where social drinking is the norm and usually leads to nothing but a hangover, there's little reason to expect "have another drink" to mean "I want to rape you." Saying that women should stay sober is to blame the victim.
Because men shouldn't rape women, even drunk ones.
And because the seat-belt analogy is itself stupid. Actual car accidents really do happen, where things get out of a driver's control through no fault of their own. There is no such thing as accidental rape. For the analogy to work at all well, you're suggesting that you need to put on your seat belt because some 10% of the male drivers on the streets want to ram womens' cars on purpose. It's an utterly ludicrous analogy, you should be ashamed for posting it with even a hint of sincerity. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Unbelievable
