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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  14:58:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

I liked when Nye went off on a tangent about fish sex. That really turned the audience around...

Did you even understand anything of the science stuff?


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  03:58:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some guy from BuzzFeed walked around with a sketch-book after the debate and let creationists ask "the other side" and Bill Nye questions.

22 Messages From Creationists To People Who Believe In Evolution


The questions ranged from ignorant to inane.

On Fire For Christ, pay attention, you might learn something. I will attempt to answer the questions as if they were posed to me. I will not attempt to debate against creationism, just try to set the record straight as best as I know it.



1) Dr. Mabuse, is Bill Nye influencing the minds of children in a positive way?
Oh Yes! They are learning critical thinking.


2) Are you scared of a Divine Creator?
(Fallacy: assumes there is a creator) No. (I'm equally not-scared of vampires or lizard aliens)


3) Is it completely illogical that the Earth was created mature? ie trees created with rings... Adam created as an adult
Yes, completely illogical. Leads to last Thursday Creationism: The Universe was created last Thursday with the deceptive age of 14By.


4) Does not the second law of thermodynamics disprove evolution?
No. You have been lied to, if someone told you it does. The second law of thermodynamics does not apply to biological systems because they are not closed.


5) How do you explain a sunset if their is no God?
First, learn to spell/grammar. Second, the Earth is turning around its axis. (Duh!)


6) If the Big Bang Theory is true and taught as science along with evolution, why do the laws of thermodynamics debunk said theories?
See question 4. You need to learn what a scientific theory is. The Big Bang Theory isn't True(tm). It's the best explanation we have for the evidence we have found thus far. The second law of thermodynamics allow for pockets of increasing order if there is a local energy source, like a force acting on the local pocket. And there is such a force: gravity.


7) What about noetics?
What about it? I've read Dan Brown's "The lost Symbol" and it wasn't that good. Besides, 21 grams is a myth.


8) Where do you derive objective meaning in life?
Fallacy: presumes there is an objective meaning in life. But life is constantly evolving, so why can't evolution be a "meaning of life". On a personal level: evolve, strive to become more today and tomorrow than you were yesterday. Keep learning, keep searching to find answers to the questions you have. Look for more questions to ask.


9) If God did not create everything, how did the first single-celled organism originate? By chance?
Not by chance as in "totally random event". Chemical reactions are far from random. You'd know that if you taken some basic chemistry lessons. The origin of the first bacteria is a scientific discipline called Abiogenesis. It's more "chemical evolution" rather than biological evolution.


10) I believe in the Big Bang Theory... God said it and BANG it happened!
That's not a Theory, it's a conjecture. You need to read up on what a scientific theory is. Actually, God creating Big Bang and then letting everything unfold on its own is Deism. Which is a religious explanation.


11) Why do evolutionists/secularists/humanists/non-God believing people reject the idea of there being a creator God but embrace the concept of intelligent design from aliens or other extraterrestrial sources?
You have been lied to. We don't.


12) There is no inbetween... the only one found has been Lucy and there are only a few pieces of the hundreds necessary for an “official proof”
If you're talking about transitional fossils, then you've been lied to. There are lots of transitional fossils. And it's a good thing you put "official proof" in quotes like that.


13) Does metamorphosis help support evolution?
Yes it does! Fascinatingly so, actually.


14) If evolution is a theory (like creationism or the bible) why then is evolution taught as fact?
Fallacy of equivocation. Creationism or the Bible aren't scientific theories. Evolution is. Evolution is in fact the best scientific theory which explains the biological diversity we have on planet earth. That's why it is taught as such in science class. The Bible is a religious text, and may be taught as a religion in religions class.


15) Because science by definition is a “theory” not testable, observable, nor repeatable, why do you object to creationism or intelligent design being taught in school?
You have been lied to. Science isn't a "theory" (colloquial meaning). It's a philosophy, a method of examining reality, and a paradigm for collecting knowledge. Religion is a completely different paradigm for collecting knowledge, one that hasn't been particularly successful by the way. Creationism and Intelligent Design belongs to Religion and should thus be taught in religions class, while science is taught in science class.


16) What mechanism has science discovered that evidences an increase of genetic information seen in any genetic mutation or evolutionary process?
There is base-pair insertions, base-pair substitution, gene duplication, chromosome duplication, viral DNA-insertion, just to name a few. Protein coding of mutations is what decides what is increased information and what is not.


17) What purpose do you think you are here for if you do not believe in salvation?
To spread my parent's genes to the next generation.


18) Why have we found only 1 “Lucy”, when we have found more than 1 of everything else?
You have been lied to. There are more than one specimen of Australopithecus Afarensis.


19) Can you believe in “the big bang” without “faith”?
Fallacy, presumes that one has to "believe" in the Big Bang. One does not. One only has to accept that it is currently the best scientific explanation there is which describes the birth of the Universe.


20) How can you look at the world and not believe someone created/thought of it? It’s amazing!!!
Easy: I just look around, without first assuming there was a God who created/thought of any of it. But I agree, it is amazing!


21) Relating to the big bang theory... Where did the exploding star come from?
What are you talking about? There aren't any exploding stars in the Big Bang theory. Those came later, much much later.


22) If we come from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?
This is one of the most stupid questions creationists have ever come up with.
We are still monkeys by your definition of "monkey". But biologists doesn't refer to our ancestors as monkeys, they were primates, just as humans are primates together with chimps, gorillas, and orangutans.
Let's translate your question from "stupid creationist language" into science-speak:
Q: If primates come from primates, then why are there still primates?
A: Because primates hasn't gone extinct yet.

This is how stupid your question sounds to us:
If you came from your grandparents, why do you still have cousins?




(Minor edits for clarification, layout, and spelling)

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/11/2014 05:20:26
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2014 :  07:15:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Some guy from BuzzFeed walked around with a sketch-book after the debate and let creationists ask "the other side" and Bill Nye questions.

22 Messages From Creationists To People Who Believe In Evolution


The questions ranged from ignorant to inane.

On Fire For Christ, pay attention, you might learn something. I will attempt to answer the questions as if they were posed to me. I will not attempt to debate against creationism, just try to set the record straight as best as I know it.



This seems like an interesting set of questions. Mind if I play along?



1) Dr. Mabuse, is Bill Nye influencing the minds of children in a positive way?
Oh Yes! They are learning critical thinking.


Absolutely. Bill is urging people to think critically and evaluate what they have been told.


2) Are you scared of a Divine Creator?
(Fallacy: assumes there is a creator) No. (I'm equally not-scared of vampires or lizard aliens)



Nope. My Divine Creatrix is a valued friend, not some feckless thug.


3) Is it completely illogical that the Earth was created mature? ie trees created with rings... Adam created as an adult
Yes, completely illogical. Leads to last Thursday Creationism: The Universe was created last Thursday with the deceptive age of 14By.


Yes, completely illogical. Although I prefer the "Last Night Creationism", that way I can blame all past mistakes on fabricated memories. (Or, I could just reject that kind of thinking and own up to my mistakes.)


4) Does not the second law of thermodynamics disprove evolution?
No. You have been lied to, if someone told you it does. The second law of thermodynamics does not apply to biological systems because they are not closed.


Not even close. 2nd law refers to a closed system. Biological systems are not closed.


5) How do you explain a sunset if their is no God?
First, learn to spell/grammar. Second, the Earth is turning around its axis. (Duh!)


I am assuming here that one is referring to the appreciation of beauty that people have. The sunset itself is pretty mundane stuff. Earth turns on it's axis, light from the sun goes through increasing thickness of atmosphere as the angle off horison shrinks, and this can be quite beautiful.

The appreciation for beauty is a human trait. There is no divine intervention required for this.


6) If the Big Bang Theory is true and taught as science along with evolution, why do the laws of thermodynamics debunk said theories?
See question 4. You need to learn what a scientific theory is. The Big Bang Theory isn't True(tm). It's the best explanation we have for the evidence we have found thus far. The second law of thermodynamics allow for pockets of increasing order if there is a local energy source, like a force acting on the local pocket. And there is such a force: gravity.


I really can't offer a different explaination than Doc here. He sums this up quite well.


7) What about noetics?
What about it? I've read Dan Brown's "The lost Symbol" and it wasn't that good. Besides, 21 grams is a myth.


What about the American and British Spiritualism movement which gave us the ideas that ghosts emit Electro-magnetic radiation? Just as unsourced and just as absurd.


8) Where do you derive objective meaning in life?
Fallacy: presumes there is an objective meaning in life. But life is constantly evolving, so why can't evolution be a "meaning of life". On a personal level: evolve, strive to become more today and tomorrow than you were yesterday. Keep learning, keep searching to find answers to the questions you have. Look for more questions to ask.


Objective meaning is a human construct. What is the objective meaning of any life? At it's most basic, it is to continue living.

On a personal level, it is to become a better person than I was yesterday.


9) If God did not create everything, how did the first single-celled organism originate? By chance?
Not by chance as in "totally random event". Chemical reactions are far from random. You'd know that if you taken some basic chemistry lessons. The origin of the first bacteria is a scientific discipline called Abiogenesis. It's more "chemical evolution" rather than biological evolution.


Abiogenesis is a newer field of study. And science is a journey, not a destination.


10) I believe in the Big Bang Theory... God said it and BANG it happened!
That's not a Theory, it's a conjecture. You need to read up on what a scientific theory is. Actually, God creating Big Bang and then letting everything unfold on its own is Deism. Which is a religious explanation.


This is called thinking in bumper stickers. It misuses language to declare victory instead of applying critical thinking.


11) Why do evolutionists/secularists/humanists/non-God believing people reject the idea of there being a creator God but embrace the concept of intelligent design from aliens or other extraterrestrial sources?
You have been lied to. We don't.


The great majority of those folks believe no such silly thing. You've been watching too much UFO Hunters on TV.


12) There is no inbetween... the only one found has been Lucy and there are only a few pieces of the hundreds necessary for an “official proof”
If you're talking about transitional fossils, then you've been lied to. There are lots of transitional fossils. And it's a good thing you put "official proof" in quotes like that.


That's a bunch of hooey. I know religious leaders like to claim there are no transitional forms, but they refuse to recognize those as transitional forms.


13) Does metamorphosis help support evolution?
Yes it does! Fascinatingly so, actually.


Yup.


14) If evolution is a theory (like creationism or the bible) why then is evolution taught as fact?
Fallacy of equivocation. Creationism or the Bible aren't scientific theories. Evolution is. Evolution is in fact the best scientific theory which explains the biological diversity we have on planet earth. That's why it is taught as such in science class. The Bible is a religious text, and may be taught as a religion in religions class.


Evolution is a scientific theory based on observation and study.

Creationism is a literary theory based on a single document (and quite a bit of conjecture from the original text). Why aren't we also pushing for the Hopi creation myth to be taught in schools as well?


15) Because science by definition is a “theory” not testable, observable, nor repeatable, why do you object to creationism or intelligent design being taught in school?
You have been lied to. Science isn't a "theory" (colloquial meaning). It's a philosophy, a method of examining reality, and a paradigm for collecting knowledge. Religion is a completely different paradigm for collecting knowledge, one that hasn't been particularly successful by the way. Creationism and Intelligent Design belongs to Religion and should thus be taught in religions class, while science is taught in science class.


Another excellent answer.


16) What mechanism has science discovered that evidences an increase of genetic information seen in any genetic mutation or evolutionary process?
There is base-pair insertions, base-pair substitution, gene duplication, chromosome duplication, viral DNA-insertion, just to name a few. Protein coding of mutations is what decides what is increased information and what is not.


Again, excellent answer.


17) What purpose do you think you are here for if you do not believe in salvation?
To spread my parent's genes to the next generation.


This assumes salvation is necessary. Most other religions don't believe in this absurd concept. You are instead judged on your actions. How you treated others. How you lived your life. How you improved yourself.


18) Why have we found only 1 “Lucy”, when we have found more than 1 of everything else?
You have been lied to. There are more than one specimen of Australopithecus Afarensis.


Pretty much, yup. There are more than one of these specimens. Religious leaders pushing creationism tend to ignore these.


19) Can you believe in “the big bang” without “faith”?
Fallacy, presumes that one has to "believe" in the Big Bang. One does not. One only has to accept that it is currently the best scientific explanation there is which describes the birth of the Universe.


I likewise have been convinced of the arguments set forth by universe expansionists.


20) How can you look at the world and not believe someone created/thought of it? It’s amazing!!!
Easy: I just look around, without first assuming there was a God who created/thought of any of it. But I agree, it is amazing!


How can you look at a rock fall that has killed people and not think of a vengeful God smiting the unwitting?


21) Relating to the big bang theory... Where did the exploding star come from?
What are you talking about? There aren't any exploding stars in the Big Bang theory. Those came later, much much later.


Exploding star? What exploding star? Big Bang doesn't say a damn thing about a single exploding star setting the whole thing off.


22) If we come from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?
This is one of the most stupid questions creationists have ever come up with.
We are still monkeys by your definition of "monkey". But biologists doesn't refer to our ancestors as monkeys, they were primates, just as humans are primates together with chimps, gorillas, and orangutans.
Let's translate your question from "stupid creationist language" into science-speak:
Q: If primates come from primates, then why are there still primates?
A: Because primates hasn't gone extinct yet.

This is how stupid your question sounds to us:
If you came from your grandparents, why do you still have cousins?




(Minor edits for clarification, layout, and spelling)


Because evolution of primates into other forms of primates does not imply the extinction of those pregenitor primates.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  03:21:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mabuse, I know more about science than you probably ever will. And 10x more about communication

Edited by - On fire for Christ on 02/13/2014 03:22:32
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  05:50:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Mabuse, I know more about science than you probably ever will.
Of course you do. That is why we all await your reply to this comment.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  06:00:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Mabuse, I know more about science than you probably ever will. And 10x more about communication

Oh yeah?! For once prove it, prove what you just stated. You haven't so far, not to anyone here. If your so much more knowledgeable about science and is 10x better at communicating it, why won't you give a proper reply to Dr. Mabuse's last post. Instead your ignoring it like you always do when you have no reply, Mr. communication. I expect when you do that it is in your mind demonstrating your abilities. It doesn't to me.

You problem is getting your science facts from the bible which is not a good idea and bound to require null answers when discussing real science. I'm not hopeful for any change in you approach to discussions here.

If you haven't already you should consider how your talents are perfect for flying off to a third world undereducated location and convincing the uneducated locals your god's gift to enlightenment. Your wasting your time here. Come to think of it maybe you have. That would explain your reply above.
edit; for spelling

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
Edited by - sailingsoul on 02/15/2014 18:19:53
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  06:34:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Mabuse, I know more about science than you probably ever will. And 10x more about communication


Prove it.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  08:26:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some other answers, including:
If Jesus came from God, then why would there still be a God?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  08:28:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Mabuse, I know more about science than you probably ever will. And 10x more about communication
I thought hubris was a sin.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend

USA
384 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  11:24:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Convinced a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Some other answers, including:
If Jesus came from God, then why would there still be a God?

I actually did at this one.

Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17)
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  12:23:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Mabuse, I know more about science than you probably ever will. And 10x more about communication

Oh yeah?! For once prove it, prove what you just stated. You haven't so far, not to anyone here. If your so much more knowledgeable about science and is 10x better at communicating it, why won't you give a proper reply to Dr. Mabuse's last post.
Actually, I didn't expect a response from OFfC.
I just did the answers just for kicks and as an exercise. Taking my science knowledge for a test-drive if you will...

I didn't intend to imply that any of these questions were posed by OFfC, but would have been pleasantly surprised if he with his awesome science-skills had taken upon himself to set his brethren straight. I mean, those 22 questions have so much wrong embedded in them. If a Christian want to have any meaningful exchange of ideas, if not a debate, at least they shouldn't be totally ignorant of what the other side think.

Practically all of the atheists and agnostics on SFN knows the Bible, and basic Christian practices, even if we think they are wrong and illogical. To hope for the opposite is obviously nave.


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  13:38:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Mabuse, I know more about science than you probably ever will.

One pre-requisite to doing science is to be open to the possibility that you might be wrong, able to acknowledge this, and change your view according to evidence and knowledge presented to you.

I welcome the opportunity to learn new stuff, and I want to know if I'm wrong about stuff so I can better myself.

You mostly seem to bounce around and/or ignore when being corrected on facts you've gotten wrong. (and refuse to give sources then asked for it)
You know, admitting you're wrong doesn't damage your prestige, but actually earns you points in respect among people who value skepticism.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2014 :  03:15:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If being wrong gives you prestige then you must be the most prestigious guy in Sweden by now.

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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Saudi Arabia
1266 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2014 :  03:24:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Mabuse, I know more about science than you probably ever will. And 10x more about communication

Oh yeah?! For once prove it, prove what you just stated. You haven't so far, not to anyone here. If your so much more knowledgeable about science and is 10x better at communicating it, why won't you give a proper reply to Dr. Mabuse's last post. Instead your ignoring it like you always do when you have no reply, Mr. Communition. I expect when you do that it is in your mind demonstrating your abilities. It doesn't to me.

You problem is getting your science facts from the bible which is not a good idea and bound to require null answers when discussing real science. I'm not hopeful for any change in you approach to discussions here.

If you haven't already you should consider how your talents are perfect for flying off to a third world undereducated location and convincing the uneducated locals your god's gift to enlightenment. Your wasting your time here. Come to think of it maybe you have. That would explain your reply above.


Sailingsoul post formula (regardless of topic):
contribute nothing. Check
attack religion. Check

Yaaaawn

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2014 :  08:03:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

If being wrong gives you prestige then you must be the most prestigious guy in Sweden by now.
It doesn't. You obviously have a reading comprehension problem, if this is your conclusion of what I wrote. (If this was an attpemt at humour on your part, then please try to be more creative because I didn't see anything funny in it.)

But by all means, show me your superiority by answering the 22 questions yourself. Or even better, use my post and show us where I was wrong.



You have been accused before of parrotting falsehoods which are known by us to be spread by ministers and bible-study teachers to ignorant and/or unsuspecting and/or nave Christian students. If we dig through your posting history here, I'm fairly confident we could dig up a lot of them. And the really sad part is, I can't remember any threads where you have acknowledged that you have been misinformed, despite being supplied with evidence that you were.
Several of these classical ministers/christian-teachers-preaching-falsehoods-about-science subjects are apparent among those 22 questions.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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