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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25887 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2017 :  10:12:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey, while we've got a couple of Christians in here: Can married Christians go to Heaven?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1406 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2017 :  01:56:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's easy: No. Heaven is fiction. Humans still fall for that?
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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend

99 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2017 :  05:54:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Well, that's exactly the mind-set of many opponents of abortion access: those women messed around and got knocked up, so being forced to carry the pregnancy is just punishment for their sinful ways.
I would bet you find very few Christians with this mindset. I don't know any or read any. Most Christians I know want to help women that have had an abortion or are having a baby.

But you were. You began by hoping that Trump could stop the "atrocity," and I asked you if you think that Trump is more wise than God. I guess you didn't want to answer that question, and so answered some question that didn't involve Trump.
No, I was not talking about Trump. I guess you can mind read? And of course I don't think Trump is more wise than god. Why doesn't god stop abortion? I don't have an answer. But the bible does teach that killing without cause is wrong and that we are humans from the time of conception (Psalm 51:5).
Edited by - Christian Hedonist on 02/09/2017 05:55:16
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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend

99 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2017 :  06:45:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Christian Hedonist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Hey, while we've got a couple of Christians in here: Can married Christians go to Heaven?


Luke 20:27-40 (ESV):

27 There came to him some Sadducees, those who deny that there is a resurrection, 28 and they asked him a question, saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies, having a wife but no children, the man must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second 31 and the third took her, and likewise all seven left no children and died. 32 Afterward the woman also died. 33 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife will the woman be? For the seven had her as wife.”
34 And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.” 39 Then some of the scribes answered, “Teacher, you have spoken well.” 40 For they no longer dared to ask him any question.

Same story in Matthew 22:23-33 (ESV):

23 The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him a question, 24 saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother. 26 So too the second and third, down to the seventh. 27 After them all, the woman died. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had her.”
29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.

Same in Mark 12:18-37 (ESV):

And Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection. And they asked him a question, saying, 19 “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the man must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 There were seven brothers; the first took a wife, and when he died left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and died, leaving no offspring. And the third likewise. 22 And the seven left no offspring. Last of all the woman also died. 23 In the resurrection, when they rise again, whose wife will she be? For the seven had her as wife.”
24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.”

Mark and Matthew are clear that Jesus is talking about after the resurrection. That in heaven we will not be married.

MT 22:30: For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Mark 12:25
For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

It seems that this verse is the one in contention from Luke 20:34-36

The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

In verse Lk:36 Jesus says “for they cannot die anymore” that does not describe Christians “of this age” but only to "that age and to the resurrection from the dead” when we will never die. In Lk:36 Jesus also says that “they are equal to angels” which also does not describe our state now before the resurrection. Angels cannot die, we are all going to die in this age.

Putting this with the Mark and Mathew verses it seems clear that Jesus is saying we will not be married in heaven. If he is saying only non-married people will be resurrected, that marriage somehow disqualifies you from the resurrection then that in no way answers the Sadducees question. Remember he scolds them for not believing in the resurrection. Also, it would contradict many other passages on marriage and the 2000 years of understanding of the verse.

We don’t get doctrine from just one verse. We compare it to the rest of the bible and this one verse, if understood this way, would be in contradiction of many verses on this subject.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

United Kingdom
1253 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2017 :  20:01:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by On fire for Christ

A machine or perfectly logical human would kill one person to save 2 without batting an eye.
You say that like it's a bad thing.


I've had the "needs of the many/the ends justify the means" debate on this forum before. People seem to just change their opinion in order to disagree with me.

Edited by - On fire for Christ on 02/09/2017 20:02:06
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25887 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2017 :  08:34:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Christian Hedonist

I would bet you find very few Christians with this mindset. I don't know any or read any. Most Christians I know want to help women that have had an abortion or are having a baby.
Any Christian who thinks that women who get pregnant due to rape should be allowed to have an abortion (but not otherwise) are effectively saying that pregnancy is a just punishment for consensual sex. There are millions of Christians who think that.

No, I was not talking about Trump. I guess you can mind read?
No, I just read what you wrote. Here is the quote in question:
Maybe through Trump we can stop this atrocity.
You were certainly talking about Trump when you wrote that. And I don't need to read your mind to determine that you changed the subject, because you later stated openly that you weren't talking about Trump.

...and that we are humans from the time of conception (Psalm 51:5).
Again: which parts of the Bible are we to take metaphorically, and which parts literally? What objective rule(s) can we apply to determine that the psalmist meant what you claim he meant? Can only humans sin? Does "in sin" refer to him or his mother?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dredge
New Member

Australia
20 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2017 :  18:55:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dredge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe Trumpism will act as a catalyst that will spell the beginning of the end of the religion of equality that came out of the Enlightenment. I hope so. Reality can bear infantile utopian nonsese for only so long.

Don't know about that wall though; he might have bitten off more than he can chew with that idea.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25887 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2017 :  05:57:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dredge

Maybe Trumpism will act as a catalyst that will spell the beginning of the end of the religion of equality that came out of the Enlightenment. I hope so. Reality can bear infantile utopian nonsese for only so long.
Which sorts of equality do you have problems with? Are you racist, classist, sexist, what? Come on, you're already out and proud about it, why not be loud, too?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25887 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2017 :  18:14:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Week 3 in Trump's America

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dredge
New Member

Australia
20 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2017 :  18:44:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dredge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Dredge

Maybe Trumpism will act as a catalyst that will spell the beginning of the end of the religion of equality that came out of the Enlightenment. I hope so. Reality can bear infantile utopian nonsese for only so long.
Which sorts of equality do you have problems with? Are you racist, classist, sexist, what? Come on, you're already out and proud about it, why not be loud, too?

Restrictions on freedom of speech prevent me from elaborating.
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Dredge
New Member

Australia
20 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2017 :  18:53:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dredge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Suffice it to say that it is a self-evident truth that all men are created UNEQUAL.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25887 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2017 :  20:03:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dredge

Restrictions on freedom of speech prevent me from elaborating.
So... you live in Germany and cannot preach Nazi doctrine?

Suffice it to say that it is a self-evident truth that all men are created UNEQUAL.
I don't know anyone who disputes that. The question is whether the inequality is due to genetics or environment. Most lefties these days believe it's the latter, and that undoing systemic bias can result in a more equal distribution of opportunities.

That last bit is important, by the way: nobody is advocating for equality of outcomes.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dredge
New Member

Australia
20 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2017 :  21:22:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dredge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Equality is the religion of the devil; a wolf in sheep's clothing.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9648 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2017 :  03:45:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That in heaven we will not be married.

Does that mean I don't get to bonk my wife anymore, if we both end up in heaven?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9648 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2017 :  03:59:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by On fire for Christ

A machine or perfectly logical human would kill one person to save 2 without batting an eye.
You say that like it's a bad thing.


I've had the "needs of the many/the ends justify the means" debate on this forum before. People seem to just change their opinion in order to disagree with me.
I'm pretty sure it has to do with how those situations are presented. They are rarely so black-or-white as Christians seem so fond of. My impressions from decades of experience within, and without church community, is that grey areas are forbidden areas to tread. The more "faithful" they are, the more black-or-white, our way or the high-way, they tend to think.

Even though Trump doesn't seem religious other than to shamelessly pander to the Christian community, his mindset seems the same. Maybe he's God of his own religion.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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