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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2007 :  19:15:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis



quote:
No. We simply take into account all of the known possible religions and then put that number under 1. There are alot but let's say there are 100 (a miniscule estimate) and ignore all possible variations and denominations. Then you have a 1% chance of going to heaven. Guess you don't know about math either.




You might as well go have a nice talk with the politicians who can't decide if they will pass legislation that allows the MMGW temps to rise 2 or 3 degrees.








quote:
There is quite a bit,


Then why not share it, right here?






quote:
but I really am more concerned with why it matters to have this discussion.


I am interested in how you prove that this cycle of warming in the earth's recorded history of warming and cooling is this time being caused by man, as opposed to warming trends before our days of industrialization.









quote:
Also, I am not hot under the collar at all.


Then act like it.







quote:
You are a comic to me at this point.


Feeling is mutual, pal.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2007 :  19:57:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

It is rather amazing when you think about it, a Socialist French decorated scientist and myself in very much total agreement that is.
It would be, except you're not.
quote:
quote:
But you still haven't quoted the important part of what he had to say.
Please quote it for me then.
That's part of my point, Bill: you don't really know what Allegre's point is, you just fawn over him because he's saying things that you think you agree with and he's a Socialist scientist. Your argument is entirely superficial and wholly political, which is what Allegre is arguing against.
quote:
OK, then I'll rephrase it, Stop pushing this unproven theory off as a slam dunk, not open for debate, case closed, discussion when one of the leading men in the field, a man who helped pioneer the MMGW theory over two decades ago, ends up recanting his position and calling the MMGW theory “over-hyped.”
Who is "pushing" it like you claim? And I'll ask again a question from your other thread on this subject: what percentage certainty would be good enough for you? 90% obviously isn't.
quote:
quote:
I'm not sure. I don't know what "denouncers" he's talking about. There are plenty of MMGW activists who are proposing solutions and researching their relatives merits (including practicality).
When they come up with something that works and is affordable then I'll have no problem switching over to the new product, what ever it may be.
Who is this "they" you mention?

And another question you failed to answer: who is it that you posit will be able to "get rich" off policies to limit MMGW?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2007 :  20:36:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Dave:
That's part of my point, Bill: you don't really know what Allegre's point is, you just fawn over him because he's saying things that you think you agree with and he's a Socialist scientist. Your argument is entirely superficial and wholly political, which is what Allegre is arguing against.


That's what happens when you only read the spin. Bill really has no clue. But I'm not going to help him here either. He needs to do his own research…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2007 :  23:19:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Bill:
Then why not share it, right here?

Here is some.
quote:
I am interested in how you prove that this cycle of warming in the earth's recorded history of warming and cooling is this time being caused by man, as opposed to warming trends before our days of industrialization.

I don't care if it is caused by space aliens Bill. Temperature and weather go hand and hand. I just don't want unstoppable hurricanes and melted ice caps. I do want cleaner air, less oil dependence, and a good blow job.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
Edited by - Neurosis on 03/06/2007 23:20:05
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2007 :  23:23:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis



quote:
No. We simply take into account all of the known possible religions and then put that number under 1. There are alot but let's say there are 100 (a miniscule estimate) and ignore all possible variations and denominations. Then you have a 1% chance of going to heaven. Guess you don't know about math either.




You might as well go have a nice talk with the politicians who can't decide if they will pass legislation that allows the MMGW temps to rise 2 or 3 degrees.



Good job saying nothing that has to do with the post Bill. Your ability to say nothing in so many words is astonishing, but it want get you into heaven. Allah will destroy you as an infidel.
quote:
Then act like it.

Oh, you think I am hot because I called you a dumbass? No. You just are a dumbass.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
Edited by - Neurosis on 03/06/2007 23:26:20
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2007 :  00:36:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
OK, then I'll rephrase it, Stop pushing this unproven theory off as a slam dunk, not open for debate, case closed, discussion when one of the leading men in the field, a man who helped pioneer the MMGW theory over two decades ago, ends up recanting his position and calling the MMGW theory “over-hyped.”
I must remind: unlike religion and politics, there ain't no such a' animal as a "slam-dunk" in science.

Really, this whole argument is superfluous. Warmer times are a'comin'. As I've stated before, while I think we've had a lot of influence on it, it is uncertain how much. But it makes more sense to me to try and curb that influence. Perhaps it might lessen the severity of it.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2007 :  05:54:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.




quote:
That's part of my point, Bill: you don't really know what Allegre's point is, you just fawn over him because he's saying things that you think you agree with and he's a Socialist scientist. Your argument is entirely superficial and wholly political, which is what Allegre is arguing against.


More of Dave's stupid games I see.



quote:
Who is "pushing" it like you claim?


For example, Environment Canada.





quote:
And I'll ask again a question from your other thread on this subject: what percentage certainty would be good enough for you? 90% obviously isn't.



As Lindzen said many years ago: "the consensus was reached before the research had even begun." Now, any scientist who dares to question the prevailing wisdom is marginalized and called a skeptic, when in fact they are simply being good scientists. This has reached frightening levels with these scientists now being called climate change denier with all the holocaust connotations of that word. The normal scientific method is effectively being thwarted. I bet we could even find one French socialist who WAS in the consensus.



quote:
quote:
quote:
I'm not sure. I don't know what "denouncers" he's talking about. There are plenty of MMGW activists who are proposing solutions and researching their relatives merits (including practicality).


When they come up with something that works and is affordable then I'll have no problem switching over to the new product, what ever it may be.


Who is this "they" you mention?


The "plenty of MMGW activists who are proposing solutions and researching their relatives merits (including practicality)" that you mentioned.



quote:
And another question you failed to answer: who is it that you posit will be able to "get rich" off policies to limit MMGW?


For example, Environment Canada brags about spending $3.7 billion in the last five years dealing with climate change almost all on propaganda trying to defend an indefensible scientific position while at the same time closing weather stations and failing to meet legislated pollution targets.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2007 :  05:57:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis




quote:
Here <http://www.ecobridge.org/content/g_evd.htm> is some.


Oh, your a link chaser I see. OK, well here http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=edae9952-3c3e-47ba-913f-7359a5c7f723&k=0









quote:
I don't care if it is caused by space aliens Bill.


That is rather obvious.




quote:
I just don't want unstoppable hurricanes and melted ice caps.


You will have to take that request up with the Creator.


quote:
I do want cleaner air, less oil dependence,


I am all down with that!




quote:
and a good blow job.


Can't help you out here.














quote:
Good job saying nothing that has to do with the post Bill. Your ability to say nothing in so many words is astonishing, but it want get you into heaven. Allah will destroy you as an infidel.



Me? Your the one trying to calcualte odds on going to heaven.




quote:
Oh, you think I am hot because I called you a dumbass? No. You just are a dumbass.


What are you, in the 7th, 8th, grade?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2007 :  06:38:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:


For example, Environment Canada brags about spending $3.7 billion in the last five years dealing with climate change almost all on propaganda trying to defend an indefensible scientific position while at the same time closing weather stations and failing to meet legislated pollution targets.

I had not heard of this. May I have a reference, please?

Never mind, I'll do it myself....

Erm, guess I'll have to ask for reference after all. I ran a google and didn't find any of that. However, I did stumble across this, this, this, and a hooray fer us'ns, of sorts, from the conservatives in government, eh?





"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2007 :  08:36:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I did some searching in a university library database re Claude Allegre just to see what he's done re climate research. The results were quite interesting. First, I found a letter to the editor in the Financial Post dated to Octover 27 2006 in which one Dan Miller responds to an October 21 article by a certain Terence Corcoran. He writes (since this is on a library server, I can't provide a link that you'll be able to access):
quote:
Is Terence Corcoran getting desperate in his endless attempts to dismiss the science of climate change?

Mr. Corcoran takes as authoritative Claude Allegre's recent statements casting doubt on the connection between manmade greenhouse gases and climate change (presumably referring to Dr. Allegre's short commentary in the magazine L'Express). Yes, Dr. Allegre is one of France's most distinguished scientists, but he is a geochemist and politician, not a climate scientist.

While his work in isotope geodynamics is groundbreaking, he has not published any papers in a peer-reviewed journal concerning anthropogenic climate change.

Moreover, real climate scientists have been quick to point out the fallacies in Dr. Allegre's analysis.
This is an interesting point that seems to confirm my general search. A search for scientific publications by Allegre include:

"The nature of pristine noble gases in mantle plumes" Science vol. 288, Iss. 5468 (2000)

"Nd isotopes in the stratigraphic record of the Montagne Noire (French Massif Central): No significant Paleozoic juvenile inputs, and pre-Hercynian paleogeography" The Journal of Geology Vol. 107, Iss. 1 (1999)

"Direct measurement of femtomoles of osmium and the 187Os/186Os ratio in seawater" Science Vol. 282, Iss. 5387 (1998)

"Plutonium-Fission Xenon Found in Earth's Mantle" Science Vol. 280, Iss. 5365 (1998)

"Multiple scale dynamo" Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of AmericaVol. 94, Iss. 11 (1997)

"The evolution of the earth" Scientific AmericanVol. 271, Iss. 4 (1994)

And the list goes on. But what do you notice about these publications? Go on, guess? Give up? I'll give you a hint: they have nothing to do with climate change. (And I guess you'll be supporting an old-earth as Dr Allegre discusses in his SciAm article, right?) So the guy, while a respected scientist in his field, isn't exactly the best person to ask about climate change.

Just FYI.
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend

USA
346 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2007 :  08:38:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send leoofno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OMG! In Bill's main reference article (http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming020507.htm) Timothy Bell actually points to "State of Fear" as support, refering to the author as "Michael Crichton, the scientist, writer and filmmaker...". Scientist? He earned an MD, but that does not make him a scientist.

After that, can you take anything he says seriously?


"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2007 :  10:28:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

More of Dave's stupid games I see.
No, your blind devotion to authority figures with whom you think you agree is no game.
quote:
For example, Environment Canada.
Can you offer an example of Environment Canada "pushing this unproven theory off as a slam dunk, not open for debate, case closed, discussion?"
quote:
quote:
And I'll ask again a question from your other thread on this subject: what percentage certainty would be good enough for you? 90% obviously isn't.
As Lindzen said many years ago: "the consensus was reached before the research had even begun." Now, any scientist who dares to question the prevailing wisdom is marginalized and called a skeptic, when in fact they are simply being good scientists.
Not true.
quote:
This has reached frightening levels with these scientists now being called climate change denier with all the holocaust connotations of that word.
Emotional hyperbole.
quote:
The normal scientific method is effectively being thwarted.
Definitely not true, as the consensus itself shows.
quote:
I bet we could even find one French socialist who WAS in the consensus.
Yeah, but he was no climate expert.
quote:
quote:
Who is this "they" you mention?
The "plenty of MMGW activists who are proposing solutions and researching their relatives merits (including practicality)" that you mentioned.
Oh, okay, they'll let you know when it's time to switch, I'm sure. Oh, wait - they already have.
quote:
quote:
And another question you failed to answer: who is it that you posit will be able to "get rich" off policies to limit MMGW?
For example, Environment Canada brags about spending $3.7 billion in the last five years dealing with climate change almost all on propaganda trying to defend an indefensible scientific position while at the same time closing weather stations and failing to meet legislated pollution targets.
Any evidence for those claims? And you really think government employees are getting rich doing those things?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9668 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2007 :  10:51:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
OK, then I'll rephrase it, Stop pushing this unproven theory off as a slam dunk, not open for debate, case closed, discussion
We aren't pushing MMGW as a slam dunk, not open for debate, case closed deal.
Your perception of it being so is a symptom of you poor understanding on science.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2007 :  12:19:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sigh, I find this debate exausting and I choose not to participate. As long as the free market system isnt drastically overhauled nothing will change much.

In the end if people have the ability to ignore its effects and they dont want it to be true, then they will believe it is not true.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2007 :  13:33:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But never fear, some great minds are hard at work on the problem.
quote:
OTTAWA (AFP) - A former Canadian defense minister is demanding governments worldwide disclose and use secret alien technologies obtained in alleged UFO crashes to stem climate change, a local paper said Wednesday.

"I would like to see what (alien) technology there might be that could eliminate the burning of fossil fuels within a generation ... that could be a way to save our planet," Paul Hellyer, 83, told the Ottawa Citizen.

I will sleep better knowing that all possible efforts are being made to save the world from this disaster. I expect to hear from Erich von Daniken any time, now.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 03/07/2007 13:36:20
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