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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  15:53:34  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mars is being hit by rapid climate change and it is happening so fast that the red planet could lose its southern ice cap, writes Jonathan Leake.

Scientists from Nasa say that Mars has warmed by about 0.5C since the 1970s. This is similar to the warming experienced on Earth over approximately the same period.

Since there is no known life on Mars it suggests rapid changes in planetary climates could be natural phenomena.


Fenton's team unearthed heat maps of the Martian surface from Nasa's Viking mission in the 1970s and compared them with maps gathered more than two decades later by Mars Global Surveyor. They found there had been widespread changes, with some areas becoming darker.



Have your say:


Okay, so now scientists are scrambling to make up an excuse for why Mars is heating like the Earth. If they say it's because of the Sun then the gig is up and the funding for global warming is gone... so now, it's because of... duststorms. Yep, dustorms.

Rory Miller, Owensboro, Kentucky


Would someone please stop calling "climatologists" scientists? What science do they perform? Why can't they accurately predict hurricane path or strength? Why do we insist on calling them scientists when they can't accurately predict the weather next week, let alone another 40 years.

Climatology is as scientific as astrology.

John, College Park, MD


"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  16:42:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finally, global warming win a place that needs it.

Your main point seems to be thoroughly contradicted by this passage from the Times article you linked to, Bill:
quote:
The mechanism at work on Mars appears, however, to be different from that on Earth. One of the researchers, Lori Fenton, believes variations in radiation and temperature across the surface of the Red Planet are generating strong winds.
(My emphasis.)

A "different mechanism" means this non-man-made warming of Mars says nothing about MMGW on earth.

"Climatology is as scientific as astrology." Utter bullshit.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/30/2007 16:43:22
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  17:01:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bad Astronomy Talks about This


quote:
o where does that leave us? When I look at all of this, I see a handful of the 100 large solar system bodies showing some evidence of local warming (Jupiter's spot), some evidence of systemic warming with known causes that are a lot more likely than the Sun heating up (like well-understood orbital variations), and some evidence that any warming experienced by these bodies is possibly being exaggerated in the reporting.

I also see cherry-picking, with no mention of the other planets and moons in the solar system.

And what of the Sun? Is it possible that the Earth's warming is caused by our nearest star?

Of course it's possible. There are links to the Sun's behavior and Earth's climate (look up the Maunder minimum for some interesting reading), and it would be foolish to simply deny this. However, this is a vastly complex and difficult system to understand, and simply claiming "Yes it's due to the Sun" or "No it's not due to the Sun" is certainly naive.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  17:33:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Would someone please stop calling "climatologists" scientists? What science do they perform? Why can't they accurately predict hurricane path or strength? Why do we insist on calling them scientists when they can't accurately predict the weather next week, let alone another 40 years.

Climatology is as scientific as astrology.


Exactly right, Bill. Because there are huge complex systems that we can't fully understand or compute, we should just give up all together.

Things were so much easier when we just thanked God and blamed the devil for the weather. I mean, who really cares about the thousands of lives probably saved by storm warnings.

Edit: Or was my above quote Bill actually quoting someone? I looked at his link, but I can't seem to find anyone saying it on that page.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 04/30/2007 17:37:09
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  17:39:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Edit: Or was my above quote Bill actually quoting someone? I looked at his link, but I can't seem to find anyone saying it on that page.



That may have been John, College Park, MD - whoever that is.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  17:43:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

Would someone please stop calling "climatologists" scientists? What science do they perform? Why can't they accurately predict hurricane path or strength? Why do we insist on calling them scientists when they can't accurately predict the weather next week, let alone another 40 years.

Climatology is as scientific as astrology.

John, College Park, MD
Wow, Bill. Seems that you've run out of your own arguments from ignorance, and now must resort to reposting other people's ignorance.

You could at least try a little, Bill, and find someone who knows what "science" means.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  18:27:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mars is like Vegas, Bill. What happens on Mars, stays on Mars.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  20:03:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Finally, global warming win a place that needs it.

Your main point seems to be thoroughly contradicted by this passage from the Times article you linked to, Bill:
quote:
The mechanism at work on Mars appears, however, to be different from that on Earth. One of the researchers, Lori Fenton, believes variations in radiation and temperature across the surface of the Red Planet are generating strong winds.
(My emphasis.)

A "different mechanism" means this non-man-made warming of Mars says nothing about MMGW on earth.

"Climatology is as scientific as astrology." Utter bullshit.






Of course you breeze right over this point:

"Since there is no known life on Mars it suggests rapid changes in planetary climates could be natural phenomena."

But you will not even consider this as a posibility because Al Gore has said that he went to Mars and this phenomena on Mars was caused by MMGW. It is so bad now with China and India going coal that Mars is not even safe, acording to Al. Yes, even with the major US population switching to CFL's.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  20:07:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Mars is like Vegas, Bill. What happens on Mars, stays on Mars.







Not according to Viking and Mars Global Surveyor. They found there had been widespread changes, with some areas becoming darker.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  20:11:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

Would someone please stop calling "climatologists" scientists? What science do they perform? Why can't they accurately predict hurricane path or strength? Why do we insist on calling them scientists when they can't accurately predict the weather next week, let alone another 40 years.

Climatology is as scientific as astrology.

John, College Park, MD
Wow, Bill. Seems that you've run out of your own arguments from ignorance, and now must resort to reposting other people's ignorance.

You could at least try a little, Bill, and find someone who knows what "science" means.




Here is Carol from Wisconsin: When I was in college in the 70's, I was taught that the Earth was entering into a mini ice age and "billions would die" . Jimmy Carter told us we had to do someting. We had to conserve energy so that we wouldn't freeze in the coming ice age . We had gas shortages. Limits of 10 gallons per fillup and could only buy gas on the days of the month that coincided with the last numbers on our car's license plates ( odd on odd days, etc.). My children are now in college and being taught that the Earth is warming and "billions will die". Same data. Same scientists? Wow, a total 180 degree shift. THE SKY IS FALLING. Scientists ' livelihood depends on grant money. The money is currently in global warming, not cooling. About them, I say, IT'S THE MONEY, STUPID. Regarding the cause of global climate change, I say, IT'S THE SUN, STUPID. In regards to the motivation of politicans like Al Gore, I say, IT'S THE POWER, STUPID. I feel so used.

Carol, Sheboygan, Wisconsin

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Edited by - Bill scott on 04/30/2007 20:14:31
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  20:14:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Mars is like Vegas, Bill. What happens on Mars, stays on Mars.







Not according to Viking and Mars Global Surveyor. They found there had been widespread changes, with some areas becoming darker.


You mean those probes are telling tales about what they saw on Mars? Now, that's just wrong.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  20:20:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

Would someone please stop calling "climatologists" scientists? What science do they perform? Why can't they accurately predict hurricane path or strength? Why do we insist on calling them scientists when they can't accurately predict the weather next week, let alone another 40 years.

Climatology is as scientific as astrology.

John, College Park, MD
Wow, Bill. Seems that you've run out of your own arguments from ignorance, and now must resort to reposting other people's ignorance.

You could at least try a little, Bill, and find someone who knows what "science" means.




Richard, from Chicago, seems to have sence of humor:


So now the Martians are causing heat on their planet as well, when will it end?

There are not any cars or cows or rainforrests - would one think it might be the solar system is changing or something logical that we poor dumb folks here on earth got no control over. I have always said a little knowledge is more dangerous than none at all, especially in the right hands.

Richard MacCarthy , Chicago, Illinois

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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GeeMack
SFN Regular

USA
1093 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  20:23:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GeeMack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And this after all your bitching about China in those other threads, Bill. You complained that nobody was willing to discuss that issue. You couldn't get your mind off Al Gore no matter how much everyone else tried to leave him out of it. Then when several people asked you to stop whining and actually discuss your concerns, asked what solutions you might offer, you bailed out completely. What about it, Bill, you figure to get back to those other threads and finish what you started?

Oh, and as has been pointed out here already, you've once again succeeded in further supporting that which you seem so intent on arguing against.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  20:27:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bill alleged:
quote:
But you will not even consider this as a posibility because Al Gore has said that he went to Mars and this phenomena on Mars was caused by MMGW.
Bill, I already wrote that I didn't get my MMGW belief from Al Gore. (Thanks for mentioning him again!) Indeed, I learned about MMGW in the science pages of, I think, Galaxy Magazine, around 1960-ish. I support Gore because of his stand on MMGW, not the other way around. Are you ignoring what I wrote, or are you calling me a liar? The liar thing I can live with, but please don't ignore what I write.

On Al Gore's trip to Mars, please provide a link, preferably with photos.



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/30/2007 20:27:39
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  20:27:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Here is Carol from Wisconsin: When I was in college in the 70's, I was taught that the Earth was entering into a mini ice age and "billions would die" .
You were taught global cooling was a fact in college? I can't believe you've ever even stepped foot in a college.

quote:
Jimmy Carter told us we had to do someting. We had to conserve energy so that we wouldn't freeze in the coming ice age . We had gas shortages. Limits of 10 gallons per fillup and could only buy gas on the days of the month that coincided with the last numbers on our car's license plates ( odd on odd days, etc.).
Bill, are you seriously suggesting or trying to imply that the gas shortages in the 70s was due to an unwarrented fear of global cooling? Just who on earth do you expect to possibly believe this historical revisionism?

quote:
My children are now in college and being taught that the Earth is warming and "billions will die". Same data.
No, bill, all new data. Science has progressed since you've been in college, you know.

quote:
Same scientists? Wow, a total 180 degree shift. THE SKY IS FALLING. Scientists ' livelihood depends on grant money. The money is currently in global warming, not cooling. About them, I say, IT'S THE MONEY, STUPID. Regarding the cause of global climate change, I say, IT'S THE SUN, STUPID. In regards to the motivation of politicans like Al Gore, I say, IT'S THE POWER, STUPID. I feel so used.
More straw men based on a fundamental misunderstanding of science and a political axe to grind. Also, glaringly, devoid of any facts whatsoever.

quote:
Carol, Sheboygan, Wisconsin
So wait, none of these were your words? What, are you just copy-and-pasting some other peoples' comments from some other forum into this thread now? If it's to prove that there are other people out there who agree with you, we know the world is stocked with uninformed idiots, bill, no need to prove that.

Oh, and I knew there was no way you went to college.


edited to say: sorry, Bill, I missed the first part of your post where you introduced "Carol's" thoughts, although you really should separate her text from your's, as I missed it the first read through.

Also, you should provide a link to wherever you're finding these cribbed passages.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/30/2007 20:31:57
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2007 :  20:39:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

Here is Carol from Wisconsin:
And it's more of the same. When are you going to find complaints from some anonymous layman who understands what science is, Bill? This one can't even remember why there were gas lines in the seventies:
When I was in college in the 70's, I was taught that the Earth was entering into a mini ice age and "billions would die" . Jimmy Carter told us we had to do someting. We had to conserve energy so that we wouldn't freeze in the coming ice age . We had gas shortages. Limits of 10 gallons per fillup and could only buy gas on the days of the month that coincided with the last numbers on our car's license plates ( odd on odd days, etc.).
Couldn't have been the work of OAPEC, now could it have, Carol? Good grief, Bill, Carter wasn't even in office when the famous gas lines occured nationwide. There's an off chance that she's talking about an isolated gas line during the 1979 crisis, but that was due to Iran, not any worry about global cooling. Can you not remember any of this, either?

Carol continues:
My children are now in college and being taught that the Earth is warming and "billions will die". Same data.
No, 30 more years of data.
Same scientists?
Hardly.
Wow, a total 180 degree shift. THE SKY IS FALLING. Scientists ' livelihood depends on grant money. The money is currently in global warming, not cooling. About them, I say, IT'S THE MONEY, STUPID.
She even screeches wrong info in all caps. You've really picked a winner here, Bill.
Regarding the cause of global climate change, I say, IT'S THE SUN, STUPID.
And what, Bill, are Carol's qualifications to determine the cause of global warming?
In regards to the motivation of politicans like Al Gore, I say, IT'S THE POWER, STUPID.
What "power" is Gore trying to seek by advocating for man-made global warming, Bill?
I feel so used.
As Carol should: she's being used by people like you, Bill, to push a political agenda which conflicts with scientific findings. The poor woman is stupified by right-wing extremist conspiracy theories which take advantage of her failing memory. You should be ashamed of yourself, Bill.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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