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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  01:55:36  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This article is in USA today, and includes this link to a video of a high quality computer simulation of one of the attacks.



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/21/2007 01:57:29

Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular

Canada
510 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  02:35:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ghost_Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering and a lead investigator on the simulation, said Purdue researchers hope their work leads to better structural design and building codes to prevent similar collapses.



Learning something from the collapse is much more productive and benificial than concocting conspiracy theories. An unanticipated failure mode has been discovered and we learn from it and make changes to prevent future occurances.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King

History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms

"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler

"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  07:10:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From the article: ""One thing it does point out... is the absolute essential nature of fireproofing steel structures," Hoffmann told The Associated Press. "This is something that wasn't done originally in the World Trade Center when it was built. It wasn't code at that time."

I thought according to NIST the impact knocked the fireproofing off. Did Hoffman read the NIST report? This statement makes no sense.




What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  07:34:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The simulation shows the wings cutting several steel columns?


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26004 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  08:24:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

From the article: ""One thing it does point out... is the absolute essential nature of fireproofing steel structures," Hoffmann told The Associated Press. "This is something that wasn't done originally in the World Trade Center when it was built. It wasn't code at that time."

I thought according to NIST the impact knocked the fireproofing off. Did Hoffman read the NIST report? This statement makes no sense.
Hoffman is mistaken. Fireproofing was required by the building codes followed by PANYNJ, as per the memorandum of understanding PANYNJ had with the city.

There aren't enough details in the NIST report or on Wikipedia to tell whether tenants began moving into WTC1 before the entire building was fireproofed or if the spraying was complete just before tenants moved in. Either way, it's clear that the coating wasn't being sprayed on as soon as each floor was finished, but instead they waited until most of the contruction was finished before even starting to fireproof. Whether or not Hoffman considers that to be not fireproofed as it was built, you'd have to ask him.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  11:59:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, when I said the computer simulation was "high quality," I was referring to the inclusion of formulae for the interactions of the physics and materials. The rendering itself would be considered crude by modern computer gaming standards. In a contemporary PC's graphics processing card, frames are rendered in greater detail in real time at dozens of frames per second. But, though such "GPUs" even calculate physical interactions, they don't do so with the attention to material science that the Purdue simulation uses.

Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

The simulation shows the wings cutting several steel columns?


Yes, of course.

Everything in the plane was traveling at about the speed of a .45 caliber pistol bullet. And don't forget the titanium of the big engine shafts: that stuff is near indestructible. I recall the case of a Soviet jet fighter whose pilot bailed out over the Soviet Union after he decided his aircraft was going to crash. The plane continued on autopilot (unintercepted) all the way to the Netherlands, where it smashed into several buildings and killed a number of people. I remember seeing a photo, which showed the plane, its titanium fuselage still largely intact, in the rubble.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/21/2007 11:59:48
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  12:14:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well actually it was travelling at closer to 700MPH than the 1100+MPH that a 45 bullet would go, though the increase in mass from a bullet to a plane engine will more than make up for the difference in lost force.

So yes a plane engine+wing travelling at 600+mph would go through a steel column like butter. Sorry to burst your 'every conspiracy is true' bubble.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26004 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  12:21:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Even with entirely-aluminum construction (which it isn't), the wings are still designed to support several times the plane's full weight, and to be constantly buffeted by 700-MPH winds.

Then, they went through the columns perpendicular to the direction in which the columns were designed to be strongest. The result shouldn't be surprising.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  13:46:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Well actually it was travelling at closer to 700MPH than the 1100+MPH that a 45 bullet would go, though the increase in mass from a bullet to a plane engine will more than make up for the difference in lost force.

So yes a plane engine+wing travelling at 600+mph would go through a steel column like butter. Sorry to burst your 'every conspiracy is true' bubble.
That was just off the top of my head, from 45-year memory*, but it was accurate enough. According to Wiki, the standard military (and the usual civilian) chambering for the .45 ACP round gives 850 fps muzzle velocity. (Yes, there are much faster chamberings.) Assuming the standard chambering, it would translate to 579.3093167701863 Miles per Hour, somewhat slower than the speed of the plane.



* A high school buddy and I were firing dangerous rockets made from matchhead-packed CO2 cylinders, with a water pipe as a launcher. Our test range was a junior high school playing field (school was out for the summer). He, being the whiz at math, did the calculations, coming up with a figure for our little missiles in the high subsonic range that, as I recall, nearly matched the ACP .45 muzzle velocity.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/21/2007 14:04:56
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  18:03:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
900fps (an average .45 muzzle velocity) gives you ~614MPH.

Copper jacketed lead can dent, and penetrate, steel at those velocities. There is no question that reinforced structural alluminum and titanium can sheer through structural steel at those speeds.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  18:45:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/b737.pl

530 mph

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=246

Military version does 564 MPH

Looks like you all should do some research before you make pronouncements.


By the way tests were done to show how the fire proofing was dislodged allowing the steel to heat to the point of failure. I am surprised this researcher did not know this.

Do you usually believe research that has a fatal know flaw?




What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  19:16:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Looks like you all should do some research before you make pronouncements.
As should you, Jerome. Both WTC attack planes were not 737's, but 767-200's. According to Wiki, they cruise at 530 mph.

According to the Wiki articles on the two WTC aircraft, Flight 11 was flying at 466 mph at impact, while Flight 175 was doing 590 mph.

[Edit: Spelling and actual impact speeds.)

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/21/2007 20:49:47
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  19:28:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Looks like you all should do some research before you make pronouncements.
As should you, Jerome. Both WTC attck planes were not 737's, but 767-200's. According to Wiki, they cruise at 530 mph.




I was wrong, 767, not 737.

You all were wrong about the speed. They do not fly at speeds of 600+ or 700 mph. Please post your retraction below.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  19:29:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way tests were done to show how the fire proofing was dislodged allowing the steel to heat to the point of failure. I am surprised this researcher did not know this.

Do you usually believe research that has a fatal know flaw?


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  19:32:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

By the way tests were done to show how the fire proofing was dislodged allowing the steel to heat to the point of failure. I am surprised this researcher did not know this.

Do you usually believe research that has a fatal know flaw?


"Knowing" or suspecting something to be true is not enough. Tests are required for proof.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED

2418 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  19:37:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JEROME DA GNOME a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME

By the way tests were done to show how the fire proofing was dislodged allowing the steel to heat to the point of failure. I am surprised this researcher did not know this.

Do you usually believe research that has a fatal know flaw?


"Knowing" or suspecting something to be true is not enough. Tests are required for proof.




Test his words. His words show that he did not have needed knowledge to preform the simulation. If the input of data is incorrect, the outcome will also be incorrect.


What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell
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