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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2008 :  18:00:23  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pelayo said:
We are in a struggle for our civilization against Muslim jihadists.


This is an interesting idea. Interesting in that many people in the US seem to believe it.

Can anyone explain to me how our civilization is at risk from Muslim jihadists?

No nonsense about how they hate us, etc... I want some specifics on how these fanatics represent a threat to our very civilization.

Explain to me how a group of people who are only capable of inflicting a few casualties are a legitimate threat to our very civilization.

Because I don't get it. It seems absurd.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth

Pelayo
Skeptic Friend

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  10:38:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pelayo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dude, you need to educate yourself. I can't teach you in one posting what I have learned in the last six years.

Start here http://www.jihadwatch.org/articles/bloggingtheq.php Robert Spencer can explain it better than I can. Then try this site: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/. There have been more than 10,000 acts of terrorism since September 11, 2001 according to the "Religion of Peace" website.

Read this also - http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam101/

Stateless terrorists, hardly, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, are three. Pakistan in under seige from the Taliban, and Pakistan has a nuclear arsenal.

Lastly, go to the nearest bookstore and pick up "Religion of Peace?: Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't" by Robert Spencer; while you are there, get an English Quran.

Europe at risk - http://worlddefensereview.com/esman022508.shtml


I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.

"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft

"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon
Edited by - Pelayo on 02/26/2008 11:31:38
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  11:53:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
According to religionofpeace.com, there were 829 deaths in January, 2008, due to Islamic terrorism.

According to the US Census Bureau, the US gains one person every 13 seconds, or about 206,000 per month.

So if all the Islamic terrorists did was attack US citizens, we would lose 0.4% of the net population gain each month. That's less than three ten-thousandths of one percent of our total population.

I'll ask Dude's question again: how does this pose a threat to our very civilization?

If all they're doing is trying to bring about their theocratic state by way of the sword and the bomb, they'll never make it.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  12:20:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave is correct.

The first batch of Islamic idiots that tried to blow up the World Trade Center are currently rotting in prison. If we had anyone other than a pathetic retard in the presidency, bin Laden and his Islamic Jihad would be no more than an ugly memory.

Me, I'm a lot more afraid of the Christians than the Muslims because they are trying to sneak their foul jihad in through the back door.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9664 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  12:30:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Both the Qu'ran and the Book of Mormon is available at http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  12:35:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pelayo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Acts of terror are just one avenue. The conflict in Europe is a peek into the future for America.

This is not something that will happen next week, but our grandchildren's children are certainly at risk.

We are bending over backwards to accomodate Muslims in the US. [Link]

There are efforts in Europe to have special laws enacted to prevent criticism of Islam. [Link]

There are conflicts over hygeine in a British hospital. [Link]

Hatred is being preached in American mosques. [Link]

Theo Van Gogh was murdered for simply producing a documentary critical of Islam. It is not the total number of killings that is of importance, it is the certain threat that a critic will be murdered that will stifle dissent.

I will probably never convince anybody at SFN that militant Islam is a real threat. You will have to study this on your own.



[Edited to shorten and fix links - Dave W.]

I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.

"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft

"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon
Edited by - Pelayo on 02/26/2008 12:46:02
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9664 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  12:51:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Pelayo
Europe at risk - http://worlddefensereview.com/esman022508.shtml
That article contains some pretty bad reporting.
The civil unrest in Denmark attributed to the re-pubication of the fameous Muhammed cartoons...
The civil unrest started before the announcement of, and subsequent, republication.
There were other underlying causes.


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  13:01:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Pelayo

I will probably never convince anybody at SFN that militant Islam is a real threat.
Well, to start you would have to get away from that ugly strawman.

I think Islam is a "real threat," I just don't see us being "in a struggle for our civilization against Muslim jihadists."

On the one hand, there's matter-of-factly stating that a religion is dangerous, and on the other there is shrieking that Muslims will end our way of life.

If you honestly don't see a difference between the two, then perhaps it isn't the rest of us who need to study.

I also don't see Islam as a larger threat to my way of life than fundamentalist Christianity, because the radical Christians have lots of followers in the Federal Government already, attempting to deprive me and my son of the freedoms we enjoy. The threat is not only larger, but much more immediate than for "our grandchildren's children."

But just because I don't believe a threat ranks number-one on my list of priorities, that doesn't mean I don't think it's a threat at all. Just because I'm much more likely to die in a car crash doesn't mean that I don't take proper precautions when using a circular saw.

And I have a hard time believing that you actually referenced World Net Daily, a news source for the radical Christians who would see the US Constitution replaced by the Bible. I see they don't give comparable numbers for Christian churches or Jewish synagoges, even though no undercover investigation is required to see the many American churches that preach hatred (because they preach it openly and typically in English). WND (also known as "Wing Nut Daily") obviously intends to distract away from the problems caused by (and embraced by) their own audience.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  13:52:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pelayo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have given some examples of the daily conflict that has arisen because fundamentalist Muslim immigrants have become a large minority in Europe.

If you want to discredit the message by discrediting the messenger (WND), try this story from Britian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/jan/07/broadcasting.channel4

Obviously I know very little about using html.

There is one thing that radical Christians do not have that Radical Muslims do have and that is the vast wealth form Middle East oil revenues.

I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.

"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft

"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  14:21:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pelayo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.




If you honestly don't see a difference between the two, then perhaps it isn't the rest of us who need to study.


I do see a difference between Islam and all other religions. When I left the Methodist Church, my minister did not issue a fatwa calling for my death.

I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.

"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft

"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  14:33:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Pelayo

Originally posted by Dave W.




If you honestly don't see a difference between the two, then perhaps it isn't the rest of us who need to study.


I do see a difference between Islam and all other religions. When I left the Methodist Church, my minister did not issue a fatwa calling for my death.
But the Puritans would have jailed you for working on the Sabbath, and the Inquisitors could have you tortured and killed for heresy. Islam is a few centuries behind where Christianity is at present, but both religions have their bloody history. If current trends continue, there is no reason not to suspect that Islam will become less violent as time continues, not more.

None of this, of course, addresses Dave's point about immediate threats to the average American's way of life right now.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  14:35:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Pelayo

Originally posted by Dave W.




If you honestly don't see a difference between the two, then perhaps it isn't the rest of us who need to study.


I do see a difference between Islam and all other religions. When I left the Methodist Church, my minister did not issue a fatwa calling for my death.
How do you know for sure? Could be.....

But there are plenty that would love to do just that if they thought they could get away with it. Fortunatly, we live in a country with a secular Constitution.

Here's a quick & easy way to link: http://tinyurl.com/ Of you can use the forum's codes and insert the link into the text, which most of us do but take, me at least, a fair amount of time to explain.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  14:47:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Pelayo

I have given some examples of the daily conflict that has arisen because fundamentalist Muslim immigrants have become a large minority in Europe.
Yes, and there's always a daily conflict of some sort somewhere. You haven't shown that the conflicts you pointed to allow us to conclude that Islam is a threat to our civilization, either here or in Europe.
If you want to discredit the message by discrediting the messenger (WND)...
Apparently, you're just going to ignore my point about relative threats.
There is one thing that radical Christians do not have that Radical Muslims do have and that is the vast wealth form Middle East oil revenues.
You're right. The radical Christians just have multi-millionaires like Howard Ahmanson, Jr., Presidents like George W. Bush and Senators like Rick Santorum to help out with the plans for Reconstruction, just to name a few.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  14:50:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

None of this, of course, addresses Dave's point about immediate threats to the average American's way of life right now.
Nor does it address the difference I was talking about: that of discussing the situation rationally on the one hand or shouting "the sky is falling" on the other.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Pelayo
Skeptic Friend

USA
70 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  17:25:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pelayo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Filthy, Westboro Baptist Church has about thirty, or fewer, devout followers. There are 1.2 billion Muslims of varying degrees of faith and devotion. If ten percent of these were radical believers, there would be 120 million to worry about. When I get a chance, I will check out that tinyuurl link, thanks.

H Humbert, What are the Puritans doing now, today? What are the Spanish Inquisitors doing now, today? I do not believe that Christianity's sordid past is applicable to today's events. I wonder how many years will the West have to contend with extreme Islam until it reforms itself. 200? 300?

Dave, we are spending millions (billions?) on security because of the threat of activity from Islamic extremists. Have we stepped up security anywhere because of the activities of Christian hijackers? Check out the news from the rest of the world, extremist Muslims are exerting their influence through violence in Thailand, Philippines, India, Indonesia, Sudan (Darfur), and other places.

Europe has a serious problem with Muslim immigration. There is pressure to establish a dual legal system in the UK. http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/30484/Sharia-storm-grows/ Do you have a problem with the "Daily Star?" As far as wealth is concerned, those examples you gave are middle class compared to the wealth of the Saudis, and the Saudis are the spreaders of their Wahabbi sect of Islam.

Finally, the sky is not falling, but some of the cables that hold it up are getting frayed. One of the many, many differences between extreme Islam and extreme Chistianity are the means to the end.

I may sound as if I am defending Christianity; I am not. I am trying to point out that the two religions are radically different.

I have a habit of posting without reading all previous comments, if I am repeating someone, well, excuse me, please.

"No tendency is quite so strong in human nature as the desire to lay down rules of conduct for other people." - William Howard Taft

"God ran out of new souls a long time ago and has been recycling jackasses." - Anon
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2008 :  18:45:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pelayo said:
I will probably never convince anybody at SFN that militant Islam is a real threat.

As has already been pointed out, no one would argue with the statement if you phrase it like that. But when you claim they are a threat to civilization, you need to make a case.

Lets just leave the christians out of it, since that subtopic is distracting from the main topic of this thread.

I still need to understand why I should be worried about civilization collapsing because of muslim juhadists.

Theo Van Gogh was murdered for simply producing a documentary critical of Islam. It is not the total number of killings that is of importance, it is the certain threat that a critic will be murdered that will stifle dissent.

I don't know how your mind works, or the minds of other people, but this type of act does the exact opposite for me. It doesn't scare me that muslims will try to kill me if I am critical of them, it pisses me off. I think, and hope, that it will piss off enough people to force islam to change.

and the Saudis are the spreaders of their Wahabbi sect of Islam

Yep. So tell me why the US government continues to deal with them. Simple answer is Oil. The Saudis are one of the worst human rights violaters on the planet, yet we treat them like good friends. As long as we keep doing that, they will never change.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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