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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 04/24/2008 : 09:23:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Well, thanks, but you're being presumptuous. I suppose you get these ideas from the good skin I inherited from my mom and the fast metabolism I inherited from my dad. Alas you are wrong on every count, especially the sleeping. While I do none of these vices in excess, I smoke cigarettes in social situations, I haven't exercised in 3 weeks, and I ate pizza both yesterday and today. I pretty much go in spurts of better and worse behavior, depending on my stress levels and work schedule. Now that I feel like crap about myself, I will continue on! |
Actually, I was right on every count. You look like you've got good behaviors. Whereas I look like a walking, talking coronary infarction.Actually, I disagree with you. In my medical utopia, doctors have much more gentle bedside manners, and go into clear, layman's explanations of everything relevant to the patient's condition and treatment.
The libertarian attitude of thinking about health care as a market and sick people as customers seriously concerns me. |
Well, so long as our medicine isn't completely socialized, when we are able, we shouldn't treat doctors as if we're disturbing their peace and queit by being sick. Even with completely socialized medicine, it'd still be their job to listen to us and be thorough. We'll be in serious trouble if our health care becomes tax-funded and doctoring becomes a government job that, like so many public positions, requires massively greivous dishonesty to get fired from.| I think the high cost of health care and co-pays has more to do with people not shopping around than people putting docs on pedestals does. |
Well, people do put their doctors on pedestals inappropriately, regardless the cost of health care. In certain situations, there may not be much of a choice (for example, a one-doctor town where that one doctor is an egotistical pig).| I meant that one can be a patient who doesn't buy into the explanations but still uses the service because they think it is helpful for an unknown reason. |
Ah, I missed that.| If someone has evidence that practitioners who use the term "holistic" are as good or better than pracitioners who don't, I'd like to see it. |
Nobody here is saying that. |
Anybody who implies that regular doctors are somehow substandard for not being "holistic" is absolutely saying that, just like ZeeKrey did. Why else make the distinction between "holistic" doctors and "allopathic" doctors? We're not talking about a subjective, "do I want an apple or an orange right now" sorta thing, we're talking about judgement calls: apples are better than oranges.| For another, when Peter McWilliams had AIDS and read a book on medical use of marijuana, and then grew his own plants for his own use to alleviate some of his pain. It worked, too. The man died when he was arrested and forced to go back to the conventional meds, which made him vomit, which he choked to death on. |
And that's neither "holistic" nor "alternative." The reason mainstream doctors don't prescribe marijuana is because it's illegal in most places, not because there isn't reams of evidence in |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2008 : 12:03:08 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | Actually, I was right on every count. You look like you've got good behaviors. Whereas I look like a walking, talking coronary infarction. |
Then isn't my point about my doctors not giving me any preventative advice made? If they are assuming based on my appearance, they are doing a dumb thing.
| Well, so long as our medicine isn't completely socialized, when we are able, we shouldn't treat doctors as if we're disturbing their peace and queit by being sick. |
I don't know anyone who worships doctors in this way. Most of the people I know who make a mistake with doctors make the mistake of thinking they can fix more than they can.
| Even with completely socialized medicine, it'd still be their job to listen to us and be thorough. We'll be in serious trouble if our health care becomes tax-funded and doctoring becomes a government job that, like so many public positions, requires massively greivous dishonesty to get fired from. |
Oh yeah, they're doing so bad in Western Europe, what with their cost per capita much lower than ours and their quality per capital much higher than ours. Gee I'm glad I live in the USA, where the fear of cancer is also a fear of total financial ruin – yay!
| Well, people do put their doctors on pedestals inappropriately, regardless the cost of health care. In certain situations, there may not be much of a choice (for example, a one-doctor town where that one doctor is an egotistical pig). |
Or when you can't get medical help except for emergencies, or when your health insurance dictates where you can get treatment and what treatment they will pay for.
| Anybody who implies that regular doctors are somehow substandard for not being "holistic" is absolutely saying that, just like ZeeKrey did. |
No, because one must factor in the damage the "woo" element before making the judgment.
| And that's neither "holistic" nor "alternative." The reason mainstream doctors don't prescribe marijuana is because it's illegal in most places, not because there isn't reams of evidence in favor of certain of its effects. |
I think you are using limited definitions of the terms that are more limited than how they are used by a general public. Most people I think would consider a guy growing marijuana in his basement after reading some book about its medical benefits an alternative form of treatment. I've also heard the term "holistic" used for its literal meaning (it is a fairly useful term), not as only synonymous with practitioners of woo.
| I'm aware of that. I was talking about my own personal response to the word "holistic." |
Fair enough.
| Once again, marf, I think we agree on more than might be apparent at first reading. |
Except for the socialized medicine stuff, yeah.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/24/2008 12:04:00 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2008 : 12:07:41 [Permalink]
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Modern medicine is a global scourge, careless in so many ways. Our obsession with life extension will be our doom.(and everything elses)[/wrench]
(waits for the lash) |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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ZeeKrey
New Member
United Arab Emirates
20 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2008 : 12:17:53 [Permalink]
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I never implied that either doctor was superior Dave. I even said specifically that I have nothing against either.
My 2 favorite doctor's are allopathic |
Zee'Krey |
| Edited by - ZeeKrey on 04/24/2008 12:18:58 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2008 : 14:40:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Then isn't my point about my doctors not giving me any preventative advice made? If they are assuming based on my appearance, they are doing a dumb thing. |
Oh, I agree, I was offering a possible reason for why they're not harping on the preventative medicine advice for you as they do for me. It's a dumb reason, but it's a reason.| Oh yeah, they're doing so bad in Western Europe, what with their cost per capita much lower than ours and their quality per capital much higher than ours. Gee I'm glad I live in the USA, where the fear of cancer is also a fear of total financial ruin – yay! |
Can the sarcasm, marf. I want socialized medicine, I just also want to see safeguards in place to prevent bad doctors from getting the "guaranteed employment" that often comes with U.S. civil-service jobs.| I think you are using limited definitions of the terms that are more limited than how they are used by a general public. Most people I think would consider a guy growing marijuana in his basement after reading some book about its medical benefits an alternative form of treatment. I've also heard the term "holistic" used for its literal meaning (it is a fairly useful term), not as only synonymous with practitioners of woo. |
No, my intent is to change the terms in use. As I said, there is evidence-based medicine on the one hand, and everything else on the other. Terms like "holistic" and "alternative" are meaning-free in such a context.
Chiropractic is functional medicine for chronic lower back pain but absolutely worthless for an ear infection. Homeopathy is completely bogus. Meditation is useful to relieve stress. Bed rest is the standard of care for acute back pain - is it "alternative" because it is completely natural? (Hell, lots of "natural" things can kill you.)
"Alternative" is simply another marketing buzzword, and does not accurately define what the public thinks it does. Ibuprofen is an alternative to naproxen sodium, in that they treat the same things about equally well across the population. Chiropractic is not an alternative to antibiotics.
A psychiatrist necessarily takes a person's emotional state into account during a history, as well as physical state. Does this make all psychiatrists "holistic?" I doubt it, because emotional states are just more symptoms, and often treated as such.
These buzzwords need to be eliminated. They were created in an attempt to lure customers. Just because some people might use them honestly doesn't mean we have to tolerate the words; instead we should get the honest people to quit helping the conmen. "Holistic," "alternative," "complementary," "integrative," "intuitive" and "energy" should be wiped from the medical lexicon as soon as possible. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2008 : 19:28:06 [Permalink]
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BPS wrote: Modern medicine is a global scourge, careless in so many ways. Our obsession with life extension will be our doom.(and everything elses)[/wrench]
(waits for the lash) |
I take it you are not a fan of transhumanism or extropians then. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/24/2008 19:28:30 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2008 : 19:32:21 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | Can the sarcasm, marf. I want socialized medicine, |
Sorry, I didn't get that from your previous comments. My mistake | I just also want to see safeguards in place to prevent bad doctors from getting the "guaranteed employment" that often comes with U.S. civil-service jobs. |
Makes sense.
| No, my intent is to change the terms in use. As I said, there is evidence-based medicine on the one hand, and everything else on the other. Terms like "holistic" and "alternative" are meaning-free in such a context. |
Okay, I see your point.
| These buzzwords need to be eliminated. |
I agree that they need to be eliminated as marketing buzzwords. They are still useful in other contexts. But you make a great argument that they should be "wiped from the medical lexicon" that I agree with whole heartedly.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2008 : 20:41:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by ZeeKrey
I never implied that either doctor was superior Dave. |
Unfortunately, what you wrote earlier has that clear implication:Holistic is treating the person as a whole oppose to treating the disease or treating the effected compartment of an individual. Osteopathic physicians take into account emotional and muscular reactions oppose to just local or chemical reactions that occur from diseases.
Allopathic doctors specialize on treating diseases, they do not commonly practice preventative medicine or consider a person's muscles, alignment, or emotions as indicators for diseases. |
Look at it. Positive points regarding holistic medicine and osteopaths, and nothing but negative comments about allopaths. Your follow-up, "I have no problem with allopathic medicine," certainly isn't a positive, it's non-commital. Same for your nod to conventional medicine's effectiveness, which you follow with an unsupported positive claim about "alternative" medicine's effectiveness.| I even said specifically that I have nothing against either. |
Except that you contrast the two against each other, as if they are competitors. That would be your "oppose to" comments, full of emotional hot-button words for those in need of treatment. Warm words regarding "holistic" medicine, and cold, dismissive words for conventional medicine.
Compare what you've said with "Mrs. Smith helps at the animal shelter, as opposed to Mr. Jones, who was seen kicking a dog. I have nothing against either person." Come on.| My 2 favorite doctor's are allopathic |
Do you realize how much that sounds like "I have some black friends" as a response to an accusation of racism? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2008 : 20:54:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
They are still useful in other contexts. |
Absolutely. Physics wouldn't get very far without reference to energy, intuitive leaps are important for artists (and few visual artists would get far without knowing their complementary colors), having lots of alternative power sources will be good for the environment, integrative approaches regarding race are still important and I'm definitely in favor of holistic corn. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ZeeKrey
New Member
United Arab Emirates
20 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2008 : 05:29:27 [Permalink]
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| That is because you bashed alternative physicians first. I dont see any wrong in that method other than you just trying to complain about something. |
Zee'Krey |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2008 : 06:51:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by ZeeKrey
That is because you bashed alternative physicians first. |
"He hit me first" is your excuse? Are you kidding me?
Seriously, I can't find anyplace where I "bashed alternative physicians." Perhaps you could quote something.| I dont see any wrong in that method other than you just trying to complain about something. |
I don't know what "method" you're talking about, but you really need to get that chip off your shoulder and pay closer attention to what's being said. If, that is, you still value our criticisms. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2008 : 08:47:01 [Permalink]
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ZeeKrey wrote: | That is because you bashed alternative physicians first. |
I went back and read it, and I don't know what the bashing is that you are talking about. Can you quote it?
| I dont see any wrong in that method other than you just trying to complain about something. |
A method is something that can be described and defined. Since I think a lot of this conversation is people talking at each other and not fully communicating, could you describe the different methods that you are referring to? Dave seems to have disputed the dualism that you have set up, and is arguing that there is only one legitimate type of medicine - evidence based - and that these other terms, such as "alternative" and "holistic" are merely marketing buzzwords. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2008 : 10:08:12 [Permalink]
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ZeeKrey:
I dont see any wrong in that method other than you just trying to complain about something. |
I think that a problem exists with the terms “alternative” and “complimentary” medicine, as Dave has pointed out. There is even a problem with the term allopathic medicine because it's a word made up by the founder of homeopathic medicine, a thoroughly debunked treatment, as a way to differentiate his alternative from the practice of evidence based medicine. And it seems likely that the term was/is meant to be used as a pejorative to describe western-based medicine.
The example used here is that allopathic medicine does not concern itself with preventative care. And that is a serious charge.
Now we know that what is described as alternative is only alternative because it lacks rigorous study, (it might work,) or the studies have not persuasively shown efficacy beyond a placebo effect. Anecdotal evidence seems to be the accepted criteria for efficacy when discussing alternative medicine in the market place. Now, it seems to me that all treatments start out as alternative at some point in there development and either pass or fail, as evidence for efficacy is established one way or the other. Homeopathy is not dismissed because it's an alternative medicine. It's dismissed because it doesn't work. (In fact, unless some laws of physics are thrown out, it can't work.)
One must question where these terms are coming from, why they are being used, and what they actually mean. As a critical thinker, with an interest in learning medical arts, I would run for the door if my teachers used many of the terms I have seen in this thread, without some very specific qualifiers.
I am not against every modality that falls under the umbrella terms of alternative or complimentary medicine. The problem is these terms tell me nothing about efficacy. And much of what is called alternative and complimentary medicine is pure quackery.
How do I go about assessing the value of what is being offered when there is so much out there of little or no value?
Loose the terms and establish efficacy, if you really want scientific credibility…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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d-d
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 06/11/2008 : 21:23:06 [Permalink]
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| It sounds like you have been in a mold enviornment somewhere, which could be the source of all of your issues. |
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Neti pots, sinus disease, and migraines
