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 Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed! ...Part 2
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2008 :  04:20:53  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is a continuation of this thread: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed!


This is the last post in the previous thread:
Originally posted by filthy

UcD is a sight to behold this morning. The lame apologetics are flying like birdshot in September. I'm only going to link one article, that, in truth, I haven't read beyond a quick scan, but could probably recite from. It's authored by Denyse, as might be expected and is all about lying and it's Darwinesque forms, also as might be expected.

Somebody read it and please tell me what happens. I don't have the will anymore.





Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2008 :  04:39:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy
Somebody read it and please tell me what happens.


Why do you hate us so much!

See, I can quotemine like a creationist too!

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2008 :  04:59:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by pleco

Originally posted by filthy
Somebody read it and please tell me what happens.


Why do you hate us so much!

See, I can quotemine like a creationist too!
Not hate, bro, not hate; just asking a small favor. I think I hit my burn-out point with this crap around 11:00 last night. It'll be a little while before I can again deal with it.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2008 :  08:43:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Guillermo Gonzalez is finishing out the semester at ISU, then starting his new job at a Christian private college.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
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USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2008 :  09:54:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
NEWS FLASH from AtBC!

When confronted with this unfotunately common sentiment,
If you do any serious searching, you will find that Darwin's principles of evolution were foundational to both Nazis and Communist totalitarianism,
Dave Scot demonstrates that he has a brain:
Ridiculous. Darwin didn't discover what could be accomplished through artificial selection. That's been common knowledge for thousands of years. Darwin first asserted that selection takes place in nature (natural selection) and works the same way as does in artificial breeding of animals. He then extrapolated selection as something that explained not just variation between individuals of the same species but also explained the origin of new species. Attributing more than that to Darwin is either mistaken, uninformed, or dishonest.
He continued later in that thread:
There is no possibility that even if Expelled did nothing but document the road to the holocaust it would be anywhere near comprehensive. In the other place where I mentioned Godwin's Law one of the other participants wrote a 700 page book attempting to connect Darwin to Holocaust and it remains unconvincing to many. Moreover it doesn't even bother to mention that the eugenics movement in Germany was preceded by the eugenics movement in the United States. That's a pretty big omission given the subject and detracts considerably from the integrity of the rest of the tome.

Bringing the holocaust into Expelled was nothing but gratuitous. It has no bearing at all on academic persecution of those who believe the universe has purpose and design. It all but destroys that message. Comparing the wholesale slaughter of many millions of people to perhaps hundreds of people losing their jobs trivializes the former in a lame to attempt to elevate the latter. People find that disgusting and virtually every review not authored by ID sympathizers focuses on it. Some reviews start off good to glowing but in the end wind up with an overall rating of "disgusting" because of the holocaust connection. To add insult to injury Expelled, by omission, conflates Social Darwinism with Biological Darwinism. The general public doesn't know the difference. All they hear is Darwinism.
Little hiccup there with the acceptance of "perhaps hundreds of people losing their jobs," but still very good stuff considering the source. And it doesn't end there:
re; segregation of inferior races

You mean like the anti-miscegenation laws in the United States dating back to colonial times that prohibited the marriage of blacks and whites? Perhaps the colonists were prescient and anticipated Darwinian theory 200 years before Darwin was born.
He even calls someone out for quote-mining Darwin:
Now let's not leave off the rest of what Darwin wrote immediately following the passage you quoted. I wonder, did you leave it out because of being misinformed, ignorant, or dishonet? I'll accept your pleading guilty to any one of those. I prefer to think you're merely uninformed though.
Dave even starts a new thread about the Darwin quote in question, and then another thread.

But all good things must come to an end, and Dave Scot does go back to normal:
The theme is academic freedom of inquiry and the underhanded tactics being used to repress unpopular ideas. It's a freedom of speech issue. If the shoe were on the other foot and creationists were the majority in academia like they are in the general public, and the creationists were the ones using the dirty tactics, I'd be out defending PZ Myers' and Richard Dawkins' right to a fair and open hearing to whoever chose to listen to them. Even though I vehemently disagree with them and consider them intellectual degenerates with IQs hardly greater than a turnip they still deserve the right to make their stupid case on a level playing field.
And that explains his support for Expelled, even if he doesn't like the eight minutes of Nazi nonsense.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2008 :  11:54:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
(My hands are shaking and I have a new twitch under my eye from getting back into this sooner than I should.) For a minute there, I was starting to reevaluate DaveScot, but he blew it.

But ok, let's briefly look at the so-called 'academic freedom' so stentoriously trumpted by DaveScot and Expelled, and the other overbearing Bible-floggers. We can do it with the answer to a single question:

Should a science professor, or any instructor, have the freedom to teach that which is not supported by the most reliable research in the subject, in short: imaginative speculations, as part of a lesson, remembering that time spent on it is time taken away from that subject?

I gotta go get me a Alky Seltzer.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2008 :  12:33:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So now Rany Olson (Flock of Dodos) and Chris Mooney (framing guru who doesn't like swearing) are both bemoaning Expelled's "HUGE success." This particular framing of the situation, of course, is just what the movie makers want to hear, and I'm sure we'll see creationists quoting Mooney's "Expelled a Box Office Success" for years to come. While being the #8 political documentary of all time after just one weekend might seem like a big deal, it's a little like being number one bestseller on Amazon.com for the book catergory of Cutaneous Diseases. It's a see-through promotional gimmick.

Another way to frame these events begins with Ken Mcnight's tale, who says that during the Q&A after an early screening:
The director was not there; the host was a PR flak who identified himself as Steve Schmidt, a personal friend of the producer (who was also Schmidt's former pastor, he said). He was a fount of interesting information... He said they would consider the opening weekend successful if the movie sold 2 million tickets (earning $12-15 million).
Since Expelled made only $3.2 million, Expelled flopped per the maker's expectations. Ed Brayton offers a few more details.

Same data, vastly different framing. Which should the pro-science side embrace? You'd figure that Mooney could figure it out. Someone framed him, though, as a "creationist apologist." And only then does Mooney figure out some framing:
  • You're shooting the messenger,
  • I'm just stating the obvious,
  • listen to this authority, and
  • I will keep speaking despite the abuse.
Where have we heard all that before? Every week from the Discovery Institute and its cronies. If he really thinks this post will save him from the "creationist apologist" charge, he's quite mistaken.

Edited to add a link.

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2008 :  13:04:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

So now Rany Olson (Flock of Dodos) and Chris Mooney (framing guru who doesn't like swearing) are both bemoaning Expelled's "HUGE success." This particular framing of the situation, of course, is just what the movie makers want to hear, and I'm sure we'll see creationists quoting Mooney's "Expelled a Box Office Success" for years to come.
You know, I really wanted to give Mooney the benefit of the doubt. I had hoped that he just got a little too involved in his hero Nisbet's personal quarrels and was having trouble extricating himself. But this "just the facts" post is so outrageously out-of touch and anti-factual-by-omission that I have to write the man off as a lost cause.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/21/2008 13:07:13
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2008 :  18:55:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wingnut Daily proudly proclaims that Expelled did better than "all but eight other movies." You heard right: they're crowing over how Expelled raked in more box-office cash than (I think) three other wide-release pictures and any indy or art-house flicks that happen to be out right now. They're making a huge deal over how their chosen film beat out Spurlock's apparently unadvertised docu-whatever, Where in the World is Osama bin Laden? which only opened on 102 screens but still made nearly half as much (per screen) as Stein's heavily advertised pack of lies.

They're spinning so fast it's making me dizzy.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  02:59:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Wingnut Daily proudly proclaims that Expelled did better than "all but eight other movies." You heard right: they're crowing over how Expelled raked in more box-office cash than (I think) three other wide-release pictures and any indy or art-house flicks that happen to be out right now. They're making a huge deal over how their chosen film beat out Spurlock's apparently unadvertised docu-whatever, Where in the World is Osama bin Laden? which only opened on 102 screens but still made nearly half as much (per screen) as Stein's heavily advertised pack of lies.

They're spinning so fast it's making me dizzy.
They certainly are and 'twas predictable as soon as we found out what a chunk of mouldering tripe this production is. They got nowhere else to go but 'round.

Got to thinking about it last night and the outlook doesn't look good for it (or looks super-dow-whoppin', according to your point of view). This thing, as with all propaganda, is intended to increase the party (figuratively speaking) membership and the loyalty of -- have I mentioned The Law of Unintended Consequences? I have. Ok. But to reiterate, The Law of Unintended Consequences states: "Propaganda only works when it gives it's subjects a strong emotional surge such as pleasure, fear, anger, hope, disgust and so on. Thus the message must be properly and carefully presented, otherwise there might well be consequences other than those the propagandist aimed for.

Now, where was I? Oh, yes....

The unintended consequences in this case look to be no significant increase in 'party' membership and quite possibly a slight decrease, as well as a lot of money being poured uselessly down the rat-hole. This would be due entirely to shitty presentation of message and the providing of excellent propaganda opportunities to the opposition; said opportunities being happily and ruthlessly exploited even as we speak. And not to mention the cheerful ridicule being heaped upon it by the other, usual suspects and even the press.

This thing has not run it's course yet; there is quite a way to go before we'll know it's ultimate fate. But I predict that it will at last be regulated to the status of those publications mongered endlessly in fundie, on-line stores with other stuff that no one but the terminally faithful really want, and that some of the churches keep in their libraries just to have it on hand. That is, if it survives it's lawsuits.

I am so delighted that the Discovery Sanatorium Institute brought this rattletrap out that I'm hoping they'll make a habit of it and give us more.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 04/22/2008 07:29:25
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  07:26:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
PZ sez it much better than I ever could:

"The appropriate responses to Expelled
Category: Creationism

Posted on: April 22, 2008 8:01 AM, by PZ Myers

I think I've said just about everything I can about that contemptible, dishonest propaganda movie starring Ben Stein, so I've been fairly quiet about it lately. It will run its short course in the theaters, and the main result will be that we'll get a few more creationists who, in addition to being grossly ignorant, will be grossly disinformed about science. Thanks to the Expelled gang, creationist arguments will be a little bit stupider.

So here are what I think are the best of the responses I've seen so far."


And there follows those responses.

He also mentions that references equating Hitler & the Nazis to evolution was a gross mistake as they invite rebuttal in kind, which is very easy to do, creationists being as they are and wide open for it.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  10:23:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its a hell of a lot eaiser to connect Christianity to Nazis than Darwin/evolution studies.

Don't forget this film had at least a 7Mil$ marketing budget in addition to the 2mil cost.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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maledoro
Skeptic Friend

66 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  12:07:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit maledoro's Homepage Send maledoro a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Don't forget this film had at least a 7Mil$ marketing budget in addition to the 2mil cost.

It got $3 mil of it back on the opening weekend. I can't believe that it debuted 10th place in receipts.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/movies/box_office.php

Hopefully, nobody took it seriously.

"Nothing frightens me more than religion at my door."

-John Cale
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  14:41:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck over here

According to :Maledoro, the damn thing made back a third of it's cost in the first weekend
The studio might see 80% of the gross back on opening weekend (the rest going to the theater owners). Even then, word 'round the blogosphere is that a film needs to make at least 50% of its cost on opening weekend in order to break even, because typically the gross diminishes quickly, and the percentage kept by the theaters increases over time. If it grosses another million next weekend, I'd be surprised.
Originally posted by maledoro

I can't believe that it debuted 10th place in receipts.
Don't forget that there were only a handful of other new, wide releases last weekend. It's a movie doldrums. Expelled was probably released at this time because there aren't any big summer blockbusters or holiday flicks for it to compete against. And even in its sixth week, the film about the talking elephant grossed more than Expelled did.
Hopefully, nobody took it seriously.
At an average $6.88 a ticket, only 431,000 or so people paid to see it. That's what, 0.15% of the US population? Three viewers for every 2,000 citizens.

It's likely that most of those who took it seriously are those who already thought that the Earth is 6,000 years old.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  15:22:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote

It's likely that most of those who took it seriously are those who already thought that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
And flat....

And now the semi-celebrities are beginning to que up:
22 April 2008

Chuck Norris reviews Expelled in Town Hall column

DaveScot

Win Ben Stein's Monkey

by Chuck Norris
Tuesday, April 22, 2008

Evolution. Intelligent design. These are terms that can cause great consternation in the minds and hearts of many, particularly opponents of each view. Now, that anxiety and debate have resurfaced in theaters everywhere with Ben Stein's new documentary, “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.” The press kit says, “('Expelled') exposes the widespread persecution of scientists and educators who are pursuing legitimate, opposing scientific views to the reigning orthodoxy.” (To see a trailer of the movie or access its free resources, go to www.getexpelled.com.)

I like Ben Stein. I think he's funny, creative and an insightful commentator on a host of issues. I'm not bent on defending him or “Expelled,” but I'm glad he made it. I saw it last weekend, and I liked it. I think it will wake up many people to the truth. What truth? That educational arenas have become limited learning environments because of biases against God, the Bible and creationism. Stein is correct in saying that passionate antagonism and hostility (that parallels any fundamentalist extremism) equally exists in naturalist and Neo-Darwinian camps. Proof of their avid bias easily can be seen in some evolutionists' reviews of this film. Many are loaded with as much inflammatory language, intolerance and bigotry as any hate-filled group.
Stuff it, Chuck. You don't know what the hell you're talking about any more than Stein.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1881 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  18:59:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Last Thursday I was having dinner with my in laws at a small restaurant in Bluffton, In. Sitting in the next booth were two couples probably in their 60, early seventies. They were speaking loud enough that I could clearly hear them over our tables conversation and my tinnitus. Normally, I would have ignored them, but an early comment caught my attention.

One of the ladies said, "I am really looking forward to seeing Expelled this weekend. Ben Stein is such an intelligent man. God is self evident and I expect this movie to prove that and how evolution is wrong."

That caught my attention. Later the two women were making glowing remarks about Dr. Laura Schlessinger's insights and how they try to listen when they can.

I drifted out of their converstion until near the end of their dinner. When they started passing judgement on other Christians and how they were only decieving themselves about being good Christians. That many of them would not find themselves in heaven as expected due to the lives they have lived here on earth.

For Expelled they just might have been part of the target audience.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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