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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 12/24/2004 : 00:23:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
The weekly planet is like the village voive of Tampa
A fine publication. I love the News of the Wierd section, and the comic with the penguin who is always bustin on W.
ack.... Storm lives near me? And here I thought the woo-woo factor was high enough already in TB!
Seriously Storm. You need to start a new thread. In the first post you need to do two things.
1. Clearly define "ghost". No circular nonsense definition.
2. List your evidence, not anecdotal stories, that ghosts exist. Explain how, why, and who says that your "emf" detectors provide evidence for "ghosts" (as opposed to providing evidence for old unshielded electrical wires). Do the same thing for any other method of observation used in your ghost hunting.
If you can't provide that minimal ammount of information for us, then why are you even here? It seems, up to this point, that you just want to tell ghost stories and share woo-woo stuff.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2004 : 00:58:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dave W:
Can you give us the name of a ghost hunter who uses scientifically reliable tests to find ghosts?
I can. Joe Nickell. We have promoted one of his books, Secrets of the Supernatural, in the Skeptic Summary. One reader reviewer said this:
quote:
Joe Nickell shows that he is neither a fanatical skeptic nor a quack paranormal investigator in this sometimes humorous look at the occult mysteries. What instantly got my attention was his debunking of so called ghost hunters with "a psychic in tow", which is exactly how I feel about them. If people state the supernatural is visible physically, then science and forensics should be able to prove these claims. If not then these claims are a hoax. Mr. Nickell does an excellent job of pointing out these hoaxes. All in all this book is a must for true paranormal investigators who prefer to apply science and common sense to claims, instead of unproven flim flam like psychic abilities in their research. Mr. Nickell is a true "ghost hunter" and this is a great book to take along any "chase".
It should be noted that Nickell does not like the word debunk. It implies a bias that a true investigator should not have. He says: quote:
A skeptical approach helps guard against the bias of either of the extremes, and objectivity is the hallmark of scholarly and scientific inquiry…
And from a website called Anomalies there is this review:
quote:
It's just what it claims to be. Joe Nickell, a professional private investigator, and John F. Fischer, a professional forensic examiner, use a combination of excellent research and common sense to track down the answers to ten classic mysteries, all formerly written off as purely supernatural. In this entertaining book they give all the details of their investigations and display all the evidence that supports their conclusions; it's bound to upset some, but this book is a must read for all that are serious about investigation of anomalies.
I am recommending this book to Storm. Naturally, I also recommend it to everyone ells interested in the subject. That would be most skeptics...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2004 : 08:29:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
I went on this investigation once. The Weekly Planet had asked me if they could do a story on me and ghost investigations. Front page I might add. The weekly planet is like the village voive of Tampa. So the plan was to go pick up the manager of The Old Tampa Theatre known to have had numerous ghostly phenomenon and head on over to the theatre. Dave and I talked about a number of Ghost stories, philosophies and theories. Dave had an experience once. His Aunt had been in the hospital dying when in the middle of the night the phone started to ring, it woke him out of his sleep. He went an answered it. Goodbye the voice said and then a dial tone. It sounded just like my Aunt. Not minutes later the phone rang again it was the hospital saying that his Aunt had died. Dreaming, hallucinating, or decaying energy leaving the body? Decaying consciousness?
Any way we arrive at her house. It was a small house built in the 1930's. We talked for a long time about the different experiences these people had. There was a family that lived in up until the 1980's and then it went from owner to renter to finally the present owners. They had been having a stairwell fixed to the attic when the man building the stairs died. I had two emf or electromagnetic field meters that I used to measure the electromagnetic fields. Some theories say that when ghosts are present electromagnetic field are effected.
I would class this more as a hypothesis, although that seems too strong a word for the inference given between gauss readings and hauntings.
quote:
There were four of us and the woman asked if we could go outside and start the investigation because they have seen a lot of phenomenon in the backyard. So I decided to use one particular meter which is black. My other tan one I left in my black bag on the couch in the living room and all four of us went outside.
They showed me the orange groves where they had seen some full body apparitions. We procedded to talk and I began to use my emf meter to see if I indeed could pick up anything. Nothing. We went to another place in yard same thing. Nothing. Let's go in she says I will show you were the gentleman died in the house. So we all proceeded to go in the back door brining us into the kitchen. Wouldn't ya know it there was my tan meter on the kitchen counter. No one else was in the house no one coporeal I guess. So I measured it with my other emf meter maybe some residue on it. Nothing. But yet it still managed to come out of my bag and produced itself on the counter
Over and over I have played the scenario in my mind, Trick no we were all together in the backyard, maybe I really took it out and forgot. I might be blonde but I remember, Dave remembers. How did my meter get to the kitchen counter
So gauss and emf meters well I can tell you they might move on there own.
But then again I went on an investigation to an antique shop and there were numerous old pieces of furniture that sent my emf reading off the wall, with no other electronics around.
What was the solar storm level three days prior to this? There are more than just active electronics in close proximity. High tension wires can also cause such readings when they are within a relatively close proximity.
quote:
Residual Hauntings, left over energy from dead things. Actually the theory is not way out there as some would think. Lot more possible than clowns dancing on fuckin mars and it has been known for many years in the ghost hunting field.
Ricky I do look for natural explanations first but that does not mean I give that as an explantion if there is none other to give.
If you think my sites I have given you are woo woo. then so be it.
I have given you proof. Look for yourself nowand not just in five minutes. Look at some of these ghost sites. Do some of your own investigations. The phenomenon of GHOSTS exists. What are the explanations I am not sure. Energy something to do with energy..
What investigations Valiant Dancer? I have shared mine share at least one before you kick me off
Fair enough.
I was assistant student stage manager of my college theather. A building supposedly haunted. My experiences lead me to believe it is, although I have no scientific proof for it. In my four years working for the theater, I noted that in one cloak room which was crushingly hot due to a great deal of steam pipes passing through it had a cold spot some times in one particular area. I had personally felt this several times. I returned to the theater two years after graduation to investigate the phenomenon futher. I noted a vent for the air conditioning system directly above the place where I had felt the cold spots.
I have seen a full body apparaition in front of a bulletin board. I was in relatively close proximity (approx 30 feet) with an unobstructed view. I was not alone as two of my staff members were near me abnd witnessed the same apparition. Our descriptions matched down to the figure being semi-transparent. I had asked others what they saw before revealing what I saw. The apparition lasted approximately 45 seconds. During that time, we were startled and did not move. I could not explain what it was we saw or what natural factors could have caused it.
I have been working alone in the locked theater late at night. "Charlie" was notorious for taking the tools from the stage after 9PM and putting them in the shop. The shop also would close and lock itself. I'd have to retrieve a socket and driver from the shop that I had laid down out of my sight on the stage not 30 seconds prior. After I had done security sweeps of the building the first three times it happened, I started addressing "Charlie" directly.
Again, I have no scientific proof for what I experienced and found at least one natural explaination for what I saw and experienced. I also recognize the experiences I had were based on origin stories which I was able to verify through newspaper accounts.
It is unfourtunate that you chose to ignore the clear request to provide sources for your claim that high gauss readings are associated with hauntings. Rage on verlch jr. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 12/27/2004 08:31:15 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2004 : 18:53:37 [Permalink]
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Wow!!! Full body apparition. I am jealous Let me make it clear I never said that high Gauss readings were definetly indicitive of a haunting. I use then because it was suggested that they might so I did my own exoeriment. Boy was I suprised at the out come!!!Scared the shit out of me.
I have to say i am definetly not a liar. Teasing hmmm no just want you to do some research yourself instead to immediately scoff . Look at me I came here posting about you skeptics not believing and boy was i right. Although this does not apply to you all.
like I said before if I cannot find a natural explanation it does not mean one does not exist. I believe the phenomenon called Ghost is natural. But just because I cannot find a natural explanation does not mean I am immediately going to disregard the phenomenon or put a natural known explanation on it. It also does not mean I will think something supernatural.
You have proof of energy. The theory of displaced energy or residual energy has been in the ghost field for years now.
A ghost to me is residual energy that is left over from a person that was previously alive but is now dead.
One night I was driving home on a two lane highway. All of a sudden I noticed a vehicle a taxi as it got close crossing the highway . But it was to late as I saw it I waited for the impact but nothing. I looked in my rear view mirror and there was the taxi in back of me continuing on its path. passing through other cars.
Part of my evidence are my woo woo stories. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2004 : 20:01:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Look at me I came here posting about you skeptics not believing and boy was i right.
No, you came here pretending to know why many skeptics don't believe in ghosts (ball and chain of spiritualism, remember?), and ignoring the basic fact that there isn't any good reason why anyone should believe in them to begin with.
You also misuse the word "proof" time and again, which generally means "something that induces certainty or establishes validity." Your links do neither, and even you yourself would admit that they demonstrate nothing conclusive.
You have provided zero proof. What you have is evidence. Poor, unconvincing, and unreliable evidence; but evidence nonetheless. But please stop saying you have provided "proof" of anything. It simply appears as if you are intentionally lying.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/28/2004 20:02:37 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2004 : 20:31:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Look at me I came here posting about you skeptics not believing and boy was i right. Although this does not apply to you all.
Hardly. You got a lot of questions which you either could not, would not, or simply did not answer. Why should we "believe" things which even vocal proponents (you) cannot define?quote:
like I said before if I cannot find a natural explanation it does not mean one does not exist. I believe the phenomenon called Ghost is natural. But just because I cannot find a natural explanation does not mean I am immediately going to disregard the phenomenon or put a natural known explanation on it. It also does not mean I will think something supernatural.
Great! We're in agreement, then. Now all you've got to do is define the phenomenon, and you'll be at the starting point for proper investigations.quote:
You have proof of energy.
You have "proof" of energy, too, every time you flip a light switch.quote:
The theory of displaced energy or residual energy has been in the ghost field for years now.
A ghost to me is residual energy that is left over from a person that was previously alive but is now dead.
We have no proof of your sort of energy ("residual" energy), which you either cannot or will not define properly. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2004 : 23:20:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
like I said before if I cannot find a natural explanation it does not mean one does not exist. I believe the phenomenon called Ghost is natural. But just because I cannot find a natural explanation does not mean I am immediately going to disregard the phenomenon or put a natural known explanation on it.
....<sigh>
critical thinking, scientific method, logic, ect..
All tools that are yours for FREE. Tools that have been proven time and time again for the last several thousand years to be extremely effective in the investigation of the natural world.
Why do you refuse to take them up and arm yourself with them? They cost you nothing, and will help expand your understanding greatly. Sometimes they are difficult to wield, and can turn on you if not used with the rigorous discipline they demand, but they are worth the effort.
You fail yourself more than anything else by passing these tools by or ignoring them. The greatest minds of our history have maintained these tools, refined and sharpened them through the years, and passed them on to each new generation with the hope that they would do the same.
It is a tragedy that can only end in the continuation of ignorance when one refuses to take up the great gifts our predecessors have labored so diligently to pass on to us.
A person such as myself (and probably many here as well) wonders why so many people refuse these great gifts. Why so many people choose ignorance over knowledge.
Storm, you seem to be the kind of person who "investigates" (I'll use that term losely here) things in order to seek confirmation of your beliefs. If you would ever bother to learn to use the tools available to you, you'd understand that this is a fundamentally flawed approach.
You should seriously consider learning something of the scientific method, critical thinking, and logic.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 08:42:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Wow!!! Full body apparition. I am jealous Let me make it clear I never said that high Gauss readings were definetly indicitive of a haunting. I use then because it was suggested that they might so I did my own exoeriment. Boy was I suprised at the out come!!!Scared the shit out of me.
And what was the outcome? Did you adequately track the readings? Did you investigate sources of naturally occurring EM fields? Did you get verification from another source? What gave you the idea that high Gauss readings were indicative of hauntings in the first place? Did they cite any scientific study? If so, what study?
These are all questions you fail to address. It is this reason that you are not taken seriously. Again, rules of logic here, the burden of proof is on the claimant. (That's you.)
quote:
I have to say i am definetly not a liar. Teasing hmmm no just want you to do some research yourself instead to immediately scoff .
As you are making the claim, it is your burden of proof to prove or disprove a point. We are not required to do your homework. We do not accept phenomenon for which there is nothing more than anectdotal evidence as being what you claim it is. Especially when natural phenomenon explains it just as well.
quote:
Look at me I came here posting about you skeptics not believing and boy was i right. Although this does not apply to you all.
like I said before if I cannot find a natural explanation it does not mean one does not exist. I believe the phenomenon called Ghost is natural. But just because I cannot find a natural explanation does not mean I am immediately going to disregard the phenomenon or put a natural known explanation on it. It also does not mean I will think something supernatural.
You have proof of energy. The theory of displaced energy or residual energy has been in the ghost field for years now.
A ghost to me is residual energy that is left over from a person that was previously alive but is now dead.
Unsupported assertation. Prove it.
quote:
One night I was driving home on a two lane highway. All of a sudden I noticed a vehicle a taxi as it got close crossing the highway . But it was to late as I saw it I waited for the impact but nothing. I looked in my rear view mirror and there was the taxi in back of me continuing on its path. passing through other cars.
Part of my evidence are my woo woo stories.
Anectdotal evidence is not proof. What were the other conditions?
They're called mirages. Your story seems to indicate that you took your eyes off the "taxi" before impact and did not see it pass through your car. What was the distance between your car and the "taxi" when you took your eyes off of it? What was the distance when you reaquired it? What was the evironmental conditions like? Were there the proximity of large buildings with a lot of windows? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 08:53:46 [Permalink]
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This thread topic is silly, question storm,
What is a Snarglefarb? Answer: The same thing as a ghost, nothing. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 15:23:55 [Permalink]
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| There are electric fields and magnetic fields, and electromagnetic waves. Electrical fields are measured in electrical field strength V/m, or electric potential Volt, and Magnetic fields are measured in Tesla. I was taught in physics that Electro-Magnetism are photons. Could you please explain how that emf-detector works? What exactly is it measuring? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 16:24:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Could you please explain how that emf-detector works? What exactly is it measuring?
It's, like, measuring energy, what part of that are you not getting from Storm's explanation?
/sarcasm off
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2004 : 20:39:48 [Permalink]
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EMF Dectors measure the electro magnetic fields in the atmosphere. Appliances give off high readings. It had been a theory in the ghost field that ghosts effect electromagnetic fields.
As far as my silly thread it was one of you who wanted to know what a ghost was
I do not fool myself
I am not the fool
The out come Valiant Dancer was that somehow my Fuckin emf meter that was in my bag on the couch was taken out and put on the kitchen counter when all known people were outside. Did I measure the area with my other meter yes!! Nothing. Was I already predispositioned to believing the house was haunted thus creating the phenomenon possible...
But I have been in numerous homes that have reported phenomenon and have not picked up anything or had my equipment moved around
I thought maybe someonelse was in the house I asked but they said no and I investigated the house but no one coporeal... possible
I don't think you don't take me seriously... I think you can see from my posts and the numerous replies that maybe someone takes me serious. I have been researching for along time.
As far as the taxi scene... Can't explain.. Good driving conditions no glass buildings... Just a fuckin taxi passing through my cars and the cars in backof me... I will never forget that.
Sorry for the cursing I do that when it is late
I put a 13 hour day in today and the last thing I dealt with was a cute old lady euthanasing her 9 month old cat because it's defense system was attacking itself thus slowly killing the cat. I sat with her for along time as she cried and told me of her beloved Tiger
Ghosts I believe they exist...
I have had numerous encounters with the phenomenon.
Energy it definetly has to do with displaced energy
I will prove it one day  |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 08:04:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
I have had numerous encounters with the phenomenon.
Energy it definetly has to do with displaced energy
I will prove it one day
But that day is not today.
Your assertations remain unsupported. This is nothing more than belief not based on the totality of evidence available. Your predisposition has clouded your investigation and you still make the unsupported claim that hauntings go along with high gauss meter readings.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 08:47:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Ghosts I believe they exist...
I have had numerous encounters with the phenomenon.
Energy it definetly has to do with displaced energy
I will prove it one day
Storm, you appear to be doing little here but repeating yourself. Perhaps it's because you're trying to convince yourself of your belief, perhaps it's because you've got nothing new to say, perhaps it's due to something else altogether. No matter the reason, repetition doesn't make your claims true, and it also doesn't advance your arguments.
Have we reached the typical "woo-woo vs. skeptic" impasse here, where you keep restating your claims, and we keep asking questions that you won't answer? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2004 : 13:57:29 [Permalink]
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[bangs head against desk]
'nuff said. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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