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ZeeKrey
New Member

United Arab Emirates
20 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2008 :  19:26:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send ZeeKrey an AOL message Send ZeeKrey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was once pursuing a degree in kinesiology. I am no longer. I have completed my certificate in muscular therapy. I tutor Anatomy and Physiology students for nursing, physical therapy, and occupational therapy. It is biochemical level which is the most depth you will find in undergraduate A&P education.

Dave I have so far been unable to find a nerve diagram on the internet with enough detail to show what you are still confused about. I am sorry.

Zee'Krey
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
24929 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2008 :  19:59:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by ZeeKrey

Dave I have so far been unable to find a nerve diagram on the internet with enough detail to show what you are still confused about. I am sorry.
How about just providing references to medical texts or articles which use the terms "nervous circulation" and "polar conduit?" I already told you I can't even find any proper references to the latter term (none at all!), and the search results for the former term relate to 19th century anatomy, chiropractic nonsense and/or to the flow of cerebrospinal fluid, none of which seem to be what you were talking about.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  00:35:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Zeekrey.....

Thank you for your response:
I was once pursuing a degree in kinesiology. I am no longer. I have completed my certificate in muscular therapy. I tutor Anatomy and Physiology students for nursing, physical therapy, and occupational therapy. It is biochemical level which is the most depth you will find in undergraduate A&P education.
You see, there is some confusion in my mind as to exactly what your medical and scientific orientation is. If you will use this LINK to the Wikipedia, you will understand some of my concern as to whether you were a practicioner of AK.
I'm a muscular therapist from New Hampshire in school to learn biochemical research and premedical to take on medical school for Osteopathic medicine (Alternative/Holistic/manipulative medicine, Same education as MD)
You know, I have never completely understood Osteopathic Medicine. I understand that the academic requirements for licensing in most states are the same as for Medical Doctors, but terms like
Alternative/Holistic/manipulative medicine
start to make me quite nervous.

Could you elaborate a bit on what both the broad and specific theoretical foundation of Osteopathic Medicine is, with specific reference to "Alternative", "Holistic", and "manipulative" medicine?

I do understand what the words mean, I am interested in your comments on this field of study and practice as opposed to the conventional education and practice of an M.D.

You say you worked in an environment with allopathic doctors. Are you sympathetic to any of their medical opinions?
we learn about everyone from applied kinisiology and molecular level anatomy and physiology to Chinese medicine, energy work and chakras.
What are your personal convictions concerning traditional Chinese medicine, "energy work" and chakras?
One thing that everyone probably does understand here is that the internet is not a good source when it comes to science. Medicine is skewed on the internet far to often and true detail in biological sciences is often not presented as it is too complex to understand from just text.
Most sophisticated users of the Internet become aware very quickly of the quackery that is rampant there, But, as I am sure you know, there is a great deal of accurate and dependable medical and scientific information available if you select your sources carefully.

Excerpts and references from many of the most prestigious scientific medical journals are available for a fee or otherwise.

For overview orientation, I have found the Wikipedia to be pretty reliable, frequently somewhat incomplete, however. Judicious use of Google will generally bring up trustworthy informaton, and I agree that it never hurts to cross check anything purporting to be fact that is found on the Internet.

However, unfortunately, the same is true to a lesser extent for much printed reference. Generally speaking, the more agreed cross-reference the better when citing sources. I have a personal library of well over a thousand volumes on many subjects. It is astounding the contradiction that I find in presumably accurate reference works.

However, my library has been collected for over fifty years, and scientific reference changes markedly from month to month, so the comparison is unfair! Unless you live next door to a large metropolitan or University public library, the Internet is a real boon for information-seekers!



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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3733 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  06:42:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ZeeKrey wrote:
Dave I have so far been unable to find a nerve diagram on the internet with enough detail to show what you are still confused about. I am sorry.
These are things that you are studying and which you plan to base a career on; can't you find the words to dispel Dave's confusion, including medical references? Even if they are references he can't look up online, at least he could look them up. You seem to be basically asking people to take your word for it.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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ZeeKrey
New Member

United Arab Emirates
20 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  17:05:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send ZeeKrey an AOL message Send ZeeKrey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dont understand exactly what requires proof. Nerves are made of nerve cells. Cells require circulation in order to maintain life and to have a function.

Action potential causing the stimulus is shown in this diagram http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/212_fall2003.web.dir/Casey_Adamson/Personal%20Web%20Page_files/image004.gif

the nerve conducts that impulse

Shown here are the contents and products of nerves being excreted
http://dericbownds.net/uploaded_images/synapseLTP.png

Is that what you are wondering Dave? Nerve cells are not wires they are various forms of tissue. They are living cells but do not have systems for reproduction.

Zee'Krey
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ZeeKrey
New Member

United Arab Emirates
20 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  17:18:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send ZeeKrey an AOL message Send ZeeKrey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Holistic is treating the person as a whole oppose to treating the disease or treating the effected compartment of an individual. Osteopathic physicians take into account emotional and muscular reactions oppose to just local or chemical reactions that occur from diseases.

Allopathic doctors specialize on treating diseases, they do not commonly practice preventative medicine or consider a person's muscles, alignment, or emotions as indicators for diseases.

I have no problem with allopathic medicine. Often times their cures and treatments are affective. Often times 'Alternative' medicines are effective when 'conventional' allopathic medicine is not.

Allopathic medicine is certainly required in emergency situations.

I find Chinese medicine fascinating and effective but I believe very little of energy work and the chakra concept. Often times I've found that Eastern medicine is much like western but described and recorded from a different angle and most likely a different side of the brain.


Zee'Krey
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  18:24:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Zeekrey.....

Thank you again for your response. Several questions.

1."Holistic is treating the person as a whole as opposed to treating the disease or treating the affected compartment of an individual.

By this do you mean that a holistic physician diagnoses a person with bacterial pneumonia as having a bacterial lung infection and other disorders , perhaps psychological and/or neurological ailments or conditions? Is this always the case in every diagnosis and treatment program; that a broader range of possible disorders is diagnosed and treated as well as the disease or condition that is in primary focus?

Like, if I have a broken arm, the holistic physician will set the bone, but psychoanalyze me and treat my liver also?

2."Osteopathic physicians take into account emotional and muscular reactions opposed to just local or chemical reactions that occur from diseases."

What are the emotional and muscular components of pancreatic cancer? Would these be addressed by a osteopathic oncologist?

3. "Allopathic doctors specialize on treating diseases, they do not commonly practice preventative medicine or consider a person's muscles, alignment, or emotions as indicators for diseases."

Then there are no allopathic cardiologists, concerned with the heart muscle, and ailments like cardiovasuclar disease, coronary heart disease, or cardiomyopathy?

4. What is "alignment"?

5. Are "emotions" always involved in an allopathic diagnosis?

6. Please visit this Link and comment on your impression of how well it defines allopathic medicine.
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ZeeKrey
New Member

United Arab Emirates
20 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  18:50:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send ZeeKrey an AOL message Send ZeeKrey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1. That is circumstantial.
2. Emotional events have physical effects.
3. You are speaking in extremes and those are specialties, I was speaking of primary care.
4. Alignment as in the chiropractic adjustment of vertebrae which often changes the alignment of other bodily structures.
5. In New England the emotional history of a patient is rarely considered.
6. I do not use Wikipedia as a reliable source of evidence beyond theory of the individual who wrote it. It is a fantastic source of knowledge to find information and material for cross referencing. I have not researched the history of the terms, I have only heard them in society and modern articles. As This article states: "In recent years, some American M.D.s who also practice alternative medicine have accepted the designation of "allopathic physician."[9][5] In one source, "allopathic medical school" has been used in contradistinction to "osteopathic medical school" in the United States.[10]"

Discussing the difference between doctors in Today's America cannot be concrete. There is too much mixing and straying from the word's original meanings. You will find many of the most famous and world renowned alternative doctor's have an allopathic education and practice and yet still practice alternative medicine.




Zee'Krey
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
24929 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  19:47:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by ZeeKrey

Is that what you are wondering Dave?
No, what I want to see is any widely acknowledged medical expert using the terms "nervous circulation" or "polar conduit" in the last, say, 50 years. Neither two-word phrase appears in any journal article indexed by PubMed, and that includes some rather odd alternative journals.

You also wrote:
Allopathic doctors specialize on treating diseases, they do not commonly practice preventative medicine...
I call "baloney" on that, too. Probably the most-common preventative medical advice offered by allegedly "allopathic" doctors is, "eat right, exercise, get enough sleep, don't smoke, etc."

Any doctor who tells me that he/she practices "holistic" medicine will find me walking out their door, because it shouldn't even be a consideration. Any doctor who fails to take things like "emotional state" into account during a history is practising poor medicine. Anyone who advertises that they're "holistic" won't even find me calling for an appointment because they're telling me that they believe in some non-existant biological dualism, or that they're trying to sucker the rubes for a buck, or without having met my doctor or even heard his name, they arrogantly think they can do a better than job than he.

And I can't, of course, neglect the non-existence of "alternative medicine." There is only evidence-based medicine, and everything else. So-called "alternative" therapies that demonstrate their value through testing and results will be adopted and prescribed by so-called "allopathic" doctors, and thus become "mainstream" medicine.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  20:18:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ZeeKrey.....

By the numbers:

1. "That is circumstantial" is not an answer, it is a statement. If you don't wish to answer a question , just say so. Evasion is just annoying.

2. "Emotional events have physical effects" is sometimes true, but it does not answer the question I asked, which was:
What are the emotional and muscular components of pancreatic cancer? Would these be addressed by a osteopathic oncologist?

3. Your answer implies that allopathic physicians are only general practice physicians. Is that your understanding? This is an area in which I am not, as yet, well informed. I truly solicit your reply!

4. Are you an advocate of chiropractic?

5. "In New England" What in the hell does New England have to do with allopathic reference or non-refernce to emotional factors in diagnosis? Do you think these things are significantly different in Arizona, Florida, Colorado, or Washington state, than they are in New England??

6. "I do not use Wikipedia as a reliable source of evidence beyond theory of the individual who wrote it." Well, I have been using encyclopedias for well over sixty years, and I can tell you that Wiki is not as authoritative in some repects as the Britannica, but it is vastly larger in scope and much more current. (Imagine getting next day information about a news event from a conventional Encyclopedia) It is largely free of spam and sham, and has reasonably little misinformation. What there is is unintentional, and spam and malice gets edited out pretty quickly. I have warched it grow in size and authenticity for several years, and I am encouraged by the project.

In any event, I did not ask you to question it's authenticity, I asked for your opinion on the Allopathic Medicine article, with overtones of homeopathy (woo-woo), and the somewhat self- contradictory tone of the article - as contrasted with your views of allopathic medical practice!

Please do not perceive that I am attacking you! I am asking hard questions, the same privilege you have with respect to me or anyone else on this forum! I am genuinely seeking information, as you appear to be well-versed in certain aspects of neurobiology and medicine. I am particularly interested in understanding what "allopathic" medicine is and is not.

Oh, and please answer Dave's questions about "nervous circulation" and "polar conduit" !
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2008 :  20:36:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anyone following this thread and interested in ZeeKrey and his opinions, should go to General Discussion, Introduce Yourself and read ZeeKrey's comments as a new member!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9451 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2008 :  03:47:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

Anyone following this thread and interested in ZeeKrey and his opinions, should go to General Discussion, Introduce Yourself and read ZeeKrey's comments as a new member!

Exact link to the post: Permalink


Hint: by clicking the [Permalink]-link to the left of the icons at the top of every post you get your browser to load a link that points exactly to that post, which could be convenient as one does not have to search through a whole page for a referenced post.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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ZeeKrey
New Member

United Arab Emirates
20 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2008 :  05:56:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send ZeeKrey an AOL message Send ZeeKrey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nevermind then. Sorry for commenting.

Zee'Krey
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
24929 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2008 :  06:59:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by ZeeKrey

Nevermind then. Sorry for commenting.
So much for "I value all of your skepticism more than you could know."

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2008 :  08:21:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nevermind then. Sorry for commenting.


If you can't stand the heat, get the Hell out!

ZeeKrey is getting too young for this kind of thing.
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