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Hal
Skeptic Friend

USA
302 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2011 :  19:46:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Hal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by darwinalogos

Actually Hal if you had read my previous post you whould have seen that the historical evidence for JC is vastlly in front o HB and AX the great


Maybe, maybe not. The problem, of course, it's that Christianity is not simply built upon belief in Jesus' historical existence, but on faith in his divinity. That point is going to lose you a lot of skeptics.

BTW - I'm no physicist, but I do know the difference between scientific theory and faith-based dogma. Contrary to what you may think, BBT is an example of the former, not the latter.


Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2011 :  19:47:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by darwinalogos

Well it's a start for you skeptics Hal. If you find immproable events has happening I guess it's like being in the BIG BANG I know YOU SKEPTICS KNOW ALL ABOUT THAT
There is at least evidence for a big bang. Where is the evidence, outside of the bible, that a guy came back to life after being dead for three days? Again, how can you use the bible to support the bible? And given the nature of the claim, and many claims the bible's authors make, some completely contrary to the actual physical evidence that exists today, I still think that you should be asking yourself your opening question. In fact... Why do you accept Jesus given that there is no actual evidence that he rose from the dead, outside of the one book that promotes him, and is so full of mistakes in other places? I mean, there isn't much I can say if you think there was a world wide flood, for example, that is not found in the geological record of the earth. Call it what it is. Faith...

If you know anything about skeptics, you should not wonder why we doubt the bible.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2011 :  19:53:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by darwinalogos

Did Alexandr the great conquer the the persian impiouer and did Hannable cross The Alpes with eleaphants. These are historical facts if you want to ask Molder and Scully to refute them be my guest
Well, you haven't changed your tune at all in seven+ years, have you, DA?

As I pointed out to you years ago, nobody is asking me to have faith in the accomplishments of Alexander and Hannibal. Nobody is asking me to wager my allegedly immortal soul on the things they did. If Alexander and Hannibal are fictional characters, I don't give a damn. There isn't a single thing about my life or afterlife that depends upon Alexander or Hannibal being real people doing real stuff.

And so, because those people have zero impact on my life, asking me to agree that Jesus is twice or even a hundred times better documented matters not one little bit. Even a million times zero is still zero.

But really, it's the faith part that I have a problem with. Even if Jesus were as well-documented a historical person as Ronald Reagan, that doesn't justify having faith that Jesus' death paid for my alleged sins as my supposed ticket to the afterlife. The number of people throughout history who have claimed to have the key to paradise is very large, and they all had one thing in common: an inability to prove their claims.

You, DA, can't get over that hurdle simply by claiming that Jesus is better documented than a couple other guys.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2011 :  21:16:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the historicity of Jesus, I'm going to trust in the opinions of scholars who actually study the Bible for a living and know a hell of a lot more about the historical context, language in which the New Testament was written, and history of the New Testament and early Christianity than I do.

Among such scholars, the current consensus is that the Gospels were not actually written by eye-witnesses, but in fact were written after Jesus died. A lot in the four Gospels is redundant to the point that it is clear they were not independently written, but rather, quite a bit of copying was involved. There are contradictions as well.

At best, the scholarly study of the evidence for Jesus says he existed, was a preacher of some sort who claimed to be the Messiah (as others did around his time period), was tried and put to death. At worst, he didn't exist as a real historical figure at all.

From this I am expected to believe he rose from the dead, that he is God, and I am supposed to worship him? Give me a break.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2011 :  21:25:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
darwinalogos wrote:
And Paul is YOUR biggest problem why would an orthodox jew who was persecuiting the early Jewish church suddenly become it's greatest apologist?
I can even begin to speculate about the motivations of a guy who lived over two thousand years ago. However, there are plenty of examples of people in modern times who have flipped from one ideology to a totally opposite ideology. We have one in the atheist community: Dan Barker. He was a Christian preacher for nearly two decades, and now he's been a huge advocate for secularism and atheism for even longer. Are you suggesting that someone flipping to an opposite position is evidence that the position they switch to is correct? Because if so, Dan Barker's switch to atheism would be evidence that atheism is correct.

More specifically, what the hell does Paul's conversion have to do with proving Jesus existed, rose from the dead, performed miracles, and is God in human form? Paul lived long after Jesus (assuming he is a real, historical figure) died. Paul had a vision. Lots of people have visions. What's your point?

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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darwinalogos
New Member

17 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2011 :  22:00:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send darwinalogos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's well past my bed time for so many responess but let me just say to one that Paul's conversion is what made up my mind about the the truth of the NT view on Jesus... did I mention that His life death and resurrection were predicdited 1000's of years before in the 39 other books known as the OT .....And just how do we KNOW what happned in the Big Bang was there an eyewitness?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2011 :  22:34:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regarding Biblical prophecies of Jesus's birth, life, death, and resurrection, much scholarly criticism has been made of those claims. Here's a pretty detailed article covering many of those criticism.

Comparing the Big Bang to Jesus is comparing apples and oranges. Scientists do not claim to know everything about the Big Bang, and in fact there are some hypothesis that question it. We do not currently have a complete understanding of physical laws, the very beginning of the Big Bang, and how it all fits together. All scientists and people interested in this topic are aware that the Big Bang Theory is merely a prevailing and incomplete theory that has been revised and likely will be revised a great deal more in the future. Also, it has its current standing based on not only mathematical formulas, but predictions that were validated, some by observations made with powerful telescopes, so there is a bit of eye witnesses account involved. What this has to do with Jesus, I have no idea.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Randy
SFN Regular

USA
1990 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2011 :  22:42:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Randy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In regards to questions on the Big Bang, here's a few Q and A's from Astronomy Cafe, not that this will have any effect on your anti-science/learning brain.....

http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/acosmbb.html

Course, I imagine you're more interested in getting your little happy face icon working than learning anything new.

"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."

"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Edited by - Randy on 09/04/2011 22:45:44
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Randy
SFN Regular

USA
1990 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2011 :  22:51:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Randy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just wondering rhetorically....did Officiant just change hats and start another moronic thread?

"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."

"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2011 :  23:19:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Darwin-something.....

Did Alexandr the great conquer the the persian impiouer and did Hannable cross The Alpes with eleaphants. These are historical facts if you want to ask Molder and Scully to refute them be my guest
I struggle to respond to your exquisitely grammatical exposition, graced by the perfect spelling of common English words, because I have no idea who the person "Alexandr" is or was, nor do I have a clue as to what the words "persian impiouer* refer. Are "the Alpes" a tropical habitat for the great apes, perhaps?

I am particularly puzzled by the apparent plural noun "eleaphants" Elea was a Greek colony in early Italy and "phant" derives from the Greek "to show or make visible", but I have never before seen the two conjoined into a single word. Perhaps you could clarify? I feel rather like a blind man poking at something with my fingers and hands, but not getting a clear idea of what it might be!

Due to your obvious literacy and erudition, I know that you cannot possibly be one of those ill-informed and unschooled intellectually challenged folk that has been deceived by some of the chicanery and outright deception of the purveyors of religious conviction - God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Trinity, Allah, Jehovah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.

So, why do you come to this Skeptic's Forum and ask "How can (we skeptics) reject Jesus?" The answer is: For the same reason we reject Grimm's Fairy Tales as reasoned fact incarnate. It is babbling nonsense fit only for the ears and intellects of infants.

And You? Why do you ask such a question, you of literary sophistication and possessed of such impeccable skills of written communication? Why do you commit such an unlikely act?

Darwin Whateverthehell, you positively baffle me!
Edited by - bngbuck on 09/05/2011 10:15:09
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2011 :  23:50:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by darwinalogos

It's well past my bed time for so many responess but let me just say to one that Paul's conversion is what made up my mind about the the truth of the NT view on Jesus...
And how do you know Paul wasn't just making stuff up? Did Paul even exist?
did I mention that His life death and resurrection were predicdited 1000's of years before in the 39 other books known as the OT
And how do we know the 1st-century authors didn't just make stuff up to "fulfill" the ancient prophecies? Where is the independent corroboration of the life and death of Jesus?
.....And just how do we KNOW what happned in the Big Bang was there an eyewitness?
We don't know. Only insane people would have faith in the Big Bang. What we do, instead, is reach tentative conclusions based on the best available evidence. Conclusions subject to revision in the light of new data. Can you say the same about your faith in Jesus?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2011 :  01:23:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
darwinalogos:
.....And just how do we KNOW what happned in the Big Bang was there an eyewitness?

Some of the evidence for the big bang is visually observable.

Hubble's Deep Field Survey : The Hubble Space Telescope (HST) was launched on April 24, 1990. Since then it has collected photographs of various celestial objects in astonishing details. One of the photos called Hubble Deep Fields has captured astronomical objects from nearby star to some immature galaxies near the beginning of the Big Bang. We are able to sample different epochs in the photo because light from the nearer objects reaches us sooner than from those further out (because light propagates with a finite speed of 3x1010 cm/sec). The objects in the photo can be separated by redshift into a series of images corresponding to different epochs. It unveils a universe that is steadily changing over time, just as the Big Bang predicts. Figaure 02-03h shows the scope of the survey including the Hubble Ultra Deep Field.

Hubble Deep Fields

Of course, there are many other kinds of evidence like background microwave radiation and other measurable predictions that big bang theory makes.

And no. We haven't actually seen the big bang itself. But the evidence for it is very compelling. Will observable evidence from three minutes after the big bang work for you?


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2011 :  04:37:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Darwinalogos, if you can't even bother yourself to come here with your a-game, you might as well go somewhere else to prosthelytsise.
You're not doing us nor yourself any favours by posting the tripe you're dumping here. Just boring us to tears.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2011 :  07:45:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just so people have all the background on Darwin Alogos, he first showed up in 2001, in the Did Jesus Really Exist? (Poll) thread. He continued to be active through Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 and Part 5 of that thread. He also took part in (listed chronologically by start-of-thread):And probably more, I got tired of sifting through Google results.

And then he went silent for about five years. And then you discussed some things with him, bngbuck, in 2008, in the thread Jesus the Evidence. Well, not just bnbuck, of course.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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darwinalogos
New Member

17 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2011 :  08:28:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send darwinalogos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First,as Hal has pointed out my belief in Jesus is not just that
The problem, of course, it's that Christianity is not simply built upon belief in Jesus' historical existence, but on faith in his divinity.
and as I read the historical accounts of his life in the NT documents I'm confrounted with the first skeptics namely his own family and disciples
He went away from there and came to his hometown,... He began to teach... and many who heard Him were astonished. "Where did this man get these things?" they said."What is this wisdom given to Him, and how are these miracles performed by His hand. Isn't this the carpenter, the son Mary, and the brother of James,Joses, Judas, and Simon?"... So they were offended by Him."(Mk.6:1-3)." In the same way, the chief priest...were mocking Him to one another and saying,"He saved others; He cannot save Himself! Let the Messiah, the King of Isreal, come down now from the cross, so that we may see and believe"... "But Jesus let out a loud cry and breathed His last. Then the curtain of the sanctuary was split in two from top to bottom. (Mk.15:31,32)
And the case for His Divinty was based on what happned 3 days later in the historic context of the monotheistic Jewish culture. A culture where they had the Temple where they believed that on 1 day only the High Priest could offer a sacrafice for their sins. But now, according to Mark, based on Jesus death the "the curtain of the sanctuary was split in two from top to bottom" The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob had fullfilled the many prophices of the OT and now forgivness of sins was through the Messiah, the Son of David. And contrary to Kil when I qoute an OT reference I'm not qouting the bible to prove the bible, but as I said before the bible has 66 books from over a 4000 year history by many diffrent authors but the central theme is that salvation would come through the Messiah, and as the NT bears witness His name is "Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucifed. He has been resurrected"Mk. 16:6.
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